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How toxic is wheat?

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Author Topic: How toxic is wheat?  (Read 25879 times)

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Pip

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2010, 11:38:10 AM »

i miss bread and other carbs very much....:(

hmm, that's too bad Nougat. It's funny, I don't miss them and I was a major carbaholic. If you are still craving carbs, maybe there is something else in your diet stimulating an insulin response. Soy? Dairy?
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Pinkmug

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2010, 02:00:19 PM »

As Pinkmug points out, the nutrients that are in wheat products are artificially added.

No no Pip, misunderstanding. These nutrients come with whole whole grain. The added crap is sugar, fat (maybe trans) preservatives, emusionants (sp?)

Sorry to hear that mom had breast cancer. But it sounds like you are very on top of diet & lifestyle in relation to breast cancer, so that is good.

Thanks for the sympathy! My mother survived breast cancer and lasted for 10 years more, but then came the german doctor...† :(

it just crossed my mind - how many overweight kids and adults have substituted muffins, donuts, scones, bagels, cake,† etc for real bread? I actually know kids and teenagers whose mothers tell me: my child doesn't want bread, they want ... (those more unhealthy stand-ins).

But by all means you are right, if you have GI/weight management troubles try eliminating items (one at a time). Unfortunately it takes long to reach a conclusion.
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Pip

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2010, 02:34:24 PM »

Sorry, I misspoke (mistyped?). Whole grain products do keep more what nutrition is there intact.† However, more WGA is intact as well. Refined wheat products are often "enriched". One has to read the labels. And refined wheat products with transfat and tons of sugar? bleck.
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anacara

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2010, 02:36:58 PM »


Eating meat is estimated to go back about 2 million years or more. More densely packed nutrition led to more brain development and us becoming human.
Quote

There was an article in either Nature or Science in about 2007 that suggested that it was when we started cooking meat in particular, that our bodies were able to access and utilise certain nutrients that led to increased brain development, but of course I can't find it now!

As for grains, I think there is no mammal that eats grains in the wild, is there? And I think even in whole wheat flour, the nutrients are very limited. As for white flour, let's not even go there! As I said above, it is possible to eat bread daily and still live a long and healthy life (though perhaps it depends on ethnic background as Pinkmug points out), but it's certainly not a worthwhile food in terms of nutrition, and for many people it is detrimental and in the long run, dangerous.

Perhaps we should be looking at our nearest relatives for a diet that approximates our own before agriculture (or fire for that matter). Bonobo chimps, who are scarily like us, eat a diet of fruit, other plant matter, small mammals, insect larvae, earthworms, honey (probably very little), and eggs. Omnivores like us (but no grains :-)).

And in case I'm completely misunderstood (on this or any other thread), I LOVE cakes and sweets (to the point where my cravings can control me if I'm not careful). And I HATE the idea of eating lambs, piggies and cows. But I try not to be blinded by my preferences and to see things as objectively as possible. In an ideal world I would be able to stay slim and healthy on a diet of cakes, chocolate, pasticcio, spaghetti carbonara, tiramisu and taramosalata, with a few fruit and and veggies thrown in if necessary. But for optimal health in the real world, I think the evidence is pretty clear that we need our protein and healthy fats, with carbs restricted to veg, nuts and some fruit. And if we have understandable qualms about eating our fellow creatures, we can do as Gandhi did (and Pinkmug does :-)) and limit our animal products to cheese and eggs.
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Pinkmug

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2010, 03:19:34 PM »

More densely packed nutrition led to more brain development and us becoming human.

And others say it was the opponent thumb, and other that it was communicating skills (language)... most probably a mix of everything.

we started cooking meat in particular,

That has at least one great bonus: killing the germs in foods† :D that alone must have accounted for a great leap up in life expectation

As for grains, I think there is no mammal that eats grains in the wild, is there?

Omnivores like us (but no grains ).


maybe because they didn't learn how to use tools like we did?

we can do as Gandhi did (and Pinkmug does )

well anacara, I feel extremely, believe me extremely honored to see my name associated whith the Mahatma's† 8)
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anacara

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2010, 03:26:11 PM »

well anacara, I feel extremely, believe me extremely honored to see my name associated whith the Mahatma's† 8)

 :wink:
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An Alchemist

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2010, 05:19:06 PM »

Actually, Pip, I did read your link(s) before replying. I simply didn't buy into the ideas championed in them--it seems they're cherry picking data while ignoring anything that doesn't conform with their theory. It really reminded me of a quote I read last week with regards to conservative and liberal think tanks: they both claim to do research and care only about the facts, yet the only 'facts' they seem to 'find' in their research are the ones that fit nicely with either their conservative or liberal ideology. Which makes you wonder, 1) do they really care about facts, and 2) are they too biased that they would be unable to accept a fact that had undeniable evidence to support it but which did not fit their platform?† :| Probably not...

To set the record straight, lots of mammals eat grains, including rodents, cattle, and chimpanzees (which are our closest genetic relative). The chimpanzee does eat meat and bugs on occasion, but this accounts for less than 5 percent of their natural diet. The rest consists of plants and fruits.

Certainly the 'optimum' food source is any that provide the necessary nutrients to live. Since no one food provides all necessary nutrients, this means a varied diet is optimum. Small amounts of everything, nothing in excess.

As proposed to by a few others, the problem with grain products isn't the wheat itself. The true problem is that many grain products are now refined, thus stripping them of much of their vital nutritional value. The best way to solve the problem is to solve it directly: eat unprocessed grain products. These are readily available and provide a multitude of nutrients that are both necessary and unavailable in meat sources alone.

Unless of course you truly are allergic or sensitive, which you've indicated you personally are, there is no benefit in avoiding wheat. But even if a few percent do have allergies to it, that doesn't make the grain 'toxic'--if it were toxic it would have a negative impact on all who consumed it. It means that the grain is an allergan for some small subset of people...an allergan, not a toxin. By all means, avoid it if it helps you. The rest of us will consume the share of grains that you leave on your plate!† :wink: :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 06:56:26 PM by An Alchemist »
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Pip

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2010, 10:41:45 PM »

Actually, Pip, I did read your link(s) before replying. I simply didn't buy into the ideas championed in them--it seems they're cherry picking data while ignoring anything that doesn't conform with their theory. It really reminded me of a quote I read last week with regards to conservative and liberal think tanks: they both claim to do research and care only about the facts, yet the only 'facts' they seem to 'find' in their research are the ones that fit nicely with either their conservative or liberal ideology. Which makes you wonder, 1) do they really care about facts, and 2) are they too biased that they would be unable to accept a fact that had undeniable evidence to support it but which did not fit their platform?† :| Probably not...
Please provide a reference to at least one study that shows that WGA does not mimic insulin or increase intestinal cell permeability. Then we can talk about cherry picking. Try looking on PubMed. I did. Couldn't find anything. Maybe you can.†

To set the record straight, lots of mammals eat grains, including rodents, cattle, and chimpanzees (which are our closest genetic relative). The chimpanzee does eat meat and bugs on occasion, but this accounts for less than 5 percent of their natural diet. The rest consists of plants and fruits.
To set the record straight... Chimpanzees absolutely do not eat grains. They eat mainly fruit and leaves and some tree seeds and insects. Cows have 4 stomach chambers and lots of bacteria that help digest the grains. Also, their natural diet is not mostly grain - it is the entire grass stalk with the incidental seeds (grain) on top. Rats can eat grains and garbage. Please don't suggest that humans should model their diet after ruminants or rodents. Chimpanzees, maybe. Anyone up for a stick full of ants? Yum!

Certainly the 'optimum' food source is any that provide the necessary nutrients to live. Since no one food provides all necessary nutrients, this means a varied diet is optimum. Small amounts of everything, nothing in excess.
This statement is also incorrect. Stefansson proved that people can eat a fatty meat diet for extended periods of time and remain healthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhjalmur_Stefansson

As proposed to by a few others, the problem with grain products isn't the wheat itself. The true problem is that many grain products are now refined, thus stripping them of much of their vital nutritional value. The best way to solve the problem is to solve it directly: eat unprocessed grain products. These are readily available and provide a multitude of nutrients that are both necessary and unavailable in meat sources alone.
Yet another incorrect statement. Please name for me at least one nutrient that is available in wheat that is unavailable in, say, beef liver. I couldn't find any.

Unless of course you truly are allergic or sensitive, which you've indicated you personally are. But that doesn't make the grain 'toxic'--if it were it would have a negative impact on all who consumed it. It means that the grain is an allergan for some small subset of people...an allergan, not a toxin.
Since individuals have different levels of responses to the same dose of a toxin, your logic that if wheat were toxic it would negatively impact all people does not hold up. Since medical tests often cannot detect wheat problems and the symptoms of wheat allergies and WGA toxicity are widespread and vary by individual it stands to reason that wheat toxicity could affect more than a small subset of people. We don't know what the exact answer is, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere greater than 'small' and less than 'all'. Given the recent increase in demand for wheat-free and gluten-free foods, it seems that quite a few people are discovering they feel better without the wheat, another indication that wheat sensitivity affects more than a small subset of people.

By all means, avoid it if it helps you. The rest of us will consume the share of grains that you leave on your plate!† :wink: :mrgreen:
Yes, please eat as much as you want. But don't deny that it is worthwhile for a lot of people to experiment with wheat content in their diet. It's risk-free, cost-free and might save people years of headaches (literally), GI problems and weight loss frustration.

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Pinkmug

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2010, 08:40:07 AM »

Please provide a reference to at least one study that shows that WGA does not mimic insulin
Hey Pip, proving a negative is impossible. It's like proving there's no god. The burden of proof is on who states an affirnative! as you know.

Stefansson proved that people can eat a fatty meat diet for extended periods of time and remain healthy.
What you call extended periods is... one year??† :shock:

Please name for me at least one nutrient that is available in wheat that is unavailable in, say, beef liver. I couldn't find any.Technically it's not a nutrient but it jumps to the mind right away.... FIBER† :D

Now I wonder why when someone talks about eliminating a food from their diet the usual suspects are wheat and milk! Nobody ever says I'm gonna shun meat for† awhile to see if that's the problem!† †:shock:

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An Alchemist

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2010, 11:16:37 AM »

Chimps have indeed been known to partake in grains. (PNAS, (2007),  104(9),  3043-3048.) Admittedly, itís not their preferred food (that would be fruits), but then meat and bugs arenít their preferred foods either.

As mentioned as well, asking me to find an article disproving WGA function would prove nothing. Correlation does not equal causation. This would be akin to asking someone to prove that eating honey does not raise blood sugar, and then claiming since it DOES raise blood sugar, eating honey MUST cause diabetes. It neither proves nor disproves anythingÖ

To verify that no food has all nutrients, the beef liver lacks calcium and vitamin D, and has such miniscule amounts of vitamins C and E, and magnesium (a mere 1% of RDA) and very little thiamin and manganese (4 and 5% respectively), that it would be difficult to obtain the RDA from this. As noted above, it is also completely devoid of fiber. On the contrary, wheat has not only fiber, but also manganese, magnesium and in high quantity (35% RDA or moreÖ), as well as a small amounts of calcium and vitamin E (5%...more than beef liver).

I didnít mean to offend by mentioning mammals other than chimps that ate grainósimply responding to the claim that no other mammal except for us who eat grains, which clearly was incorrect.

Lastly, I donít begrudge you experimenting with your diet. And hopefully you donít begrudge us omnivorous grain eaters who point out that grains can indeed be eaten successfully without health ills. Itís okay for people to have different opinions about something so controversial and unproven, and if I can accept that you choose not to eat grains because you feel they harm your health (and I doÖ) then you must accept that others can eat them because they believe theyíre fine. (Stating our own views and backing them up should not be seen as a personal attach, and I hope you donít view it this way).
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anacara

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2010, 11:50:56 AM »

I didnít mean to offend by mentioning mammals other than chimps that ate grainósimply responding to the claim that no other mammal except for us who eat grains, which clearly was incorrect.


I was talking about bonobo chimps but maybe it would be more correct to call them just bonobos, as they diverged from chimpanzees a million or so years ago. Here is an interesting article on their carnivorous side: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14926

The comment about mammals in general was actually a question: As for grains, I think there is no mammal that eats grains in the wild, is there?
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anacara

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2010, 12:14:20 PM »

Chimps have indeed been known to partake in grains. (PNAS, (2007),† 104(9),† 3043-3048.) Admittedly, itís not their preferred food (that would be fruits), but then meat and bugs arenít their preferred foods either.


Interesting article but from a quick look, it is actually talking about archaeological evidence from 4,300 years and not specifically about present-day chimps, although it does refer to these as "crack[ing] five nut species that, except for one (Coula edulis), are not cracked by local human populations".
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An Alchemist

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2010, 12:23:41 PM »

Oops, you're right. I missed that it was a question rather than a statement. That clearly was a mistake on my part.  :oops:

And yes, the PNAS study does examine archeological evidence. I think this is okay though, since much of the new paleo evidence is also archeological in nature.
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anacara

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2010, 12:29:12 PM »

Oops, you're right. I missed that it was a question rather than a statement. That clearly was a mistake on my part.† :oops:

No worries.
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VeganKitten

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Re: How toxic is wheat?
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2010, 03:25:44 PM »

 :D :D :D
I'm going to eat a big, juicy slab of SEITAN* right now!
Om nom nom nom nom....
 :D :D :D

*practically 100% wheat gluten
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