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Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat

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Author Topic: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat  (Read 14299 times)

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IndianGirl

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Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« on: March 10, 2010, 08:39:06 PM »

Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/a-high-protein-diet-wont_b_492203.html

KF: What's the danger in a high animal protein diet? Is animal fat any different than vegetable fat (like oils or avocado)?

DO: Diets that are high in animal protein are usually high in saturated fat, which promotes both heart disease and cancer. A recent study reviewed by Dr. Steven A. Smith in The New England Journal of Medicine found that high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets accelerate atherosclerosis (blockage in arteries) through mechanisms other than traditional risk factors such as changes in cholesterol and triglycerides.

Fat (from any source) has nine calories per gram, whereas protein and carbohydrates have only four calories per gram. Thus, when you eat less fat, you consume fewer calories even if you eat the same amount of food--because the food is less dense in calories.

Also, too much protein, especially animal protein, puts a strain on your liver and kidneys and promotes osteoporosis. When your body excretes too much protein, it excretes too much calcium along with it. Too much animal protein, especially red meat, has been linked with significantly increased risks of heart disease, prostate cancer, breast cancer and colon cancer.

For example, a study published last year in the Archives of Internal Medicine reported the findings from a half-million people in the NIH-AARP study that consumption of red meat was significantly associated with increases in total mortality, cardiovascular mortality and cancer mortality.

Studies show that measures of cardiovascular disease rather than just risk factors show that people on average become worse on an Atkins diet. For example, a recent study published in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association by Miller et al showed that flow-mediated vasodilation (a measure of heart disease), LDL-cholesterol and inflammation worsened on a high-animal-protein diet but improved significantly on a low-fat, whole foods, plant-based diet.
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Pip

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2010, 09:56:29 AM »

For every study published, there is a another study that says the opposite.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=1

Clinical study of Atkins:
"The low-carbohydrate diet was associated with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart disease"
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/348/21/2082

From what I have read it is the combination of eating processed carbs with saturated fat that is the problem for heart disease. Atkins diet has different phases of the diet where more carbs are allowed, including grains. Which phase did they study?

Ornish recommends soy products in the article. There are plenty of studies shown that soy can cause decreased thyroid function and early puberty in girls:
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=thyroid&cdn=health&tm=73&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p726.5.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff%3D/c/a/2006/08/13/CMGJKK1BP31.DTL

Saturated fat study
Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies  showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.27725v1?papetoc

Pick your poison:
High carbs => diabetes
High protein => liver & kidney problems
High Sat. fat with carbs => heart disease
High Sat. fat, low carbs, low-ish protein => ???

Further reading:
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/
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anacara

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 01:37:44 AM »

For every study published, there is a another study that says the opposite.

Pip, I beg to differ. For every study published that is positive about carbs and/or negative about fats & proteins, there are not one, but several that say the opposite.  :wink:
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An Alchemist

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 05:17:27 AM »

Actually, I think a supermajority of studies supports the high sat fat diet/disease link. Everything in moderation, seems to be the key.
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anacara

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 07:29:38 AM »

Actually, I think a supermajority of studies supports the high sat fat diet/disease link. Everything in moderation, seems to be the key.

I think not. One metastudy after another is showing quite otherwise, e.g.:

1) Am J Clin Nutr (January 13, 2010). doi:10.3945/ajcn.2009.27725

 
Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease
Patty W Siri-Tarino, Qi Sun, Frank B Hu and Ronald M Krauss

ABSTRACT

Background: A reduction in dietary saturated fat has generally been thought to improve cardiovascular health.

Objective: The objective of this meta-analysis was to summarize the evidence related to the association of dietary saturated fat with risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke, and cardiovascular disease (CVD; CHD inclusive of stroke) in prospective epidemiologic studies.

Design: Twenty-one studies identified by searching MEDLINE and EMBASE databases and secondary referencing qualified for inclusion in this study. A random-effects model was used to derive composite relative risk estimates for CHD, stroke, and CVD.

Results: During 5–23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects, 11,006 developed CHD or stroke. Intake of saturated fat was not associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. The pooled relative risk estimates that compared extreme quantiles of saturated fat intake were 1.07 (95% CI: 0.96, 1.19; P = 0.22) for CHD, 0.81 (95% CI: 0.62, 1.05; P = 0.11) for stroke, and 1.00 (95% CI: 0.89, 1.11; P = 0.95) for CVD. Consideration of age, sex, and study quality did not change the results.

Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.


2) A Systematic Review of the Evidence Supporting a Causal Link Between Dietary Factors and Coronary Heart Disease
Andrew Mente, PhD; Lawrence de Koning, MSc; Harry S. Shannon, PhD; Sonia S. Anand, MD, PhD, FRCPC


Arch Intern Med. 2009;169(7):659-669.

Background  Although a wealth of literature links dietary factors and coronary heart disease (CHD), the strength of the evidence supporting valid associations has not been evaluated systematically in a single investigation.

Methods  We conducted a systematic search of MEDLINE for prospective cohort studies or randomized trials investigating dietary exposures in relation to CHD. We used the Bradford Hill guidelines to derive a causation score based on 4 criteria (strength, consistency, temporality, and coherence) for each dietary exposure in cohort studies and examined for consistency with the findings of randomized trials.

Results  Strong evidence supports valid associations (4 criteria satisfied) of protective factors, including intake of vegetables, nuts, and "Mediterranean" and high-quality dietary patterns with CHD, and associations of harmful factors, including intake of trans–fatty acids and foods with a high glycemic index or load. Among studies of higher methodologic quality, there was also strong evidence for monounsaturated fatty acids and "prudent" and "western" dietary patterns. Moderate evidence (3 criteria) of associations exists for intake of fish, marine -3 fatty acids, folate, whole grains, dietary vitamins E and C, beta carotene, alcohol, fruit, and fiber. Insufficient evidence (2 criteria) of association is present for intake of supplementary vitamin E and ascorbic acid (vitamin C); saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids; total fat; -linolenic acid; meat; eggs; and milk. Among the dietary exposures with strong evidence of causation from cohort studies, only a Mediterranean dietary pattern is related to CHD in randomized trials.

Conclusions  The evidence supports a valid association of a limited number of dietary factors and dietary patterns with CHD. Future evaluation of dietary patterns, including their nutrient and food components, in cohort studies and randomized trials is recommended.


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An Alchemist

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 08:30:22 AM »

Um, 'kay... So we shouldn't moderate our intake?? Or...maybe I'm misunderstanding that you think not?  :|
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Pip

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 09:42:46 AM »

Um, 'kay... So we shouldn't moderate our intake?? Or...maybe I'm misunderstanding that you think not?  :|

Depends what you mean by moderation. Let's pretend that we knew for sure that the optimal % of calories from fat was 70% for everyone. In that case would moderation mean eating 70% fat or something less than that?

Some things to think about:
If everything in moderation, how much arsenic should I consume everyday? You can replace the word 'arsenic' with HFCS or hydrogenated oils or any other non-food ingredient that regularly shows up on supermarket shelves.

Ornish's vegetarian diet studies were done on patients with pre-existing coronary artery disease, not on a healthy population.

Since the 1980's when recommendations to eat a low-fat diet came out, has the American public become more obese or less obese? What about other countries that adopted that advice?

The fact is that many nutrition studies were poorly designed and are worse than meaningless.
A study of Sat. fat in the American diet also implies that these people were also eating plenty of processed food, like flour, sugar, etc.
A study of the Inuit diet shows they were eating plenty of Sat. fat and very little carbs or plants, yet were healthy.

Read this carefully and you will see that the jury is still out on Sat. fats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat

I think the moral of the story is that if you are going to consume carbs, then, yes, you should limit your intake of fat. The way I understand it is that by eating carb and fat together, the fat is not immediately used for energy and stored (or circulating in your blood). But your body does need some fats. Cooking should be done with saturated fats like coconut oil, since polyunsaturated fats become oxidized when heated (become trans fat). Consume oils like olive oil raw.

If you are going consume fats, you need to limit carbs, especially heavily processed ones. Why would anyone want to skew their diet toward more fat? Because it is more satiating and because without carbs present the body uses fat efficiently and doesn't store it. Therefore it is easier to maintain a negative calorie balance and lose weight. 

If by moderating intake, you mean reduce reduce total calories - sure! If you mean eat equal calorie amounts of fat, protein and carbs, then I would disagree that that advice is appropriate for all people. If you mean that it is okay to eat heavily processed, unnatural foods (let's add soy protein isolate to that list) in "moderation", then I would completely disagree.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 11:39:20 AM by Pip »
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anacara

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 10:05:46 AM »

Actually, I think a supermajority of studies supports the high sat fat diet/disease link.
Sorry - careless on my part. "I think not" referred to the first sentence above. Now that you mention it however, no I don't think everything in moderation is a good idea in itself in terms of nutrition, unless you are talking only of the sort of natural, unprocessed foods that human beings evolved eating long before the advent of agriculture.
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August

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 12:13:06 PM »

I'm a little farther down the rabbit hole than you are Pip.

An alternative theory, which makes a lot of sense to me, is that repetitive blood sugar spikes are what cause the damage; cholesterol is used in the body's attempt to heal itself, and saturated fat seems to have some protectiive effect as well- at least, one could infer that based on a calmer insulin response with saturated fat rather than without.

The very title of the article is laughable to me because all I have to do is look in the mirror.  I'll believe me and my own eyes over Ornish any day. 
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Pip

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 12:53:28 PM »

Well, one certainly can't make the argument that blood sugar spikes are a good thing.  :) 

Some people have recommended eating fat with carbs to keep the overall glycemic index low. Therefore, if someone is always eating hi fat, hi sugar like ice cream or cake with icing, would their blood sugar still spike, or would it always be at a high baseline?

I think there may be some validity to the vegetarian diet Ornish recommends for people with CVD. However, finding that people can improve CVD with a vegetarian diet should not be construed to mean that healthy people should not eat red meat. It's like saying that diabetes can be controlled with insulin shots, therefore everyone should take insulin shots.

I also think one can be healthy on a vegetarian diet if one controls the spikes and makes sure that they are getting enough proper nutrients.

However, I do think our bodies do run better with saturated fat because of the calmer insulin response you mention.

Sorry, Indian Girl. You haven't persuaded us meat eaters to give it up yet.  :)



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August

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 02:10:43 PM »

I think saturated fat, in case of things like ice cream, slows things down a bit.  The incoming load of sugar still must pass through the circulatory system, and insulin will still be deployed, but the unit of sugar per period of time is lower.
That's the impression I got, anyway.  I wish I could remember which site I got this idea from.

Maybe it was one of Jimmy Moore's podcasts with one of the Weston Price people.

Anyway, it's only making the best out of a bad situation, not removing the irritation completely. 

There is also an aspect of self-discipline, or the lack thereof, here.  When cravings hit, it's been my experience that eating a fatty meal helps.  Even if I do give in and eat something I shouldn't, I've just had a fatty meal, which normally includes a lot of calories and a lot of nutrients, so I can't eat as much and the subsequent sugar spike isn't as bad.  Apply this strategy over time and those donuts someone decided to bring to the office cease to look interesting.
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Pip

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 02:33:43 PM »

Yes, it seems that consuming at least some saturated fat is one of the keys to controlling appetite. And just in case some folks missed it, coconut oil is a saturated fat.

Anyway, August, I am very happy for your weight loss success. I thought your posts regarding dental care & vit. K2 were also interesting. My dentist had never heard of K2 or Weston Price. I have been off of HFCS since last Nov. and grains and sugar since Jan. and I had very little plaque build up on my teeth this time in contrast to how much I used to get - I used to have to get them cleaned every 4 months. I recently ordered butter oil/cod liver oil combo with plenty of vit. K2, A & D. Six months from now, maybe no plaque?
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bleeding

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 02:37:31 PM »

Uffe Ravnskov's book shows studies that found high cholesterol PROTECTS against heart disease, but the authors' conclusions and abstract (which is what all doctors & laypeople and many scientists read) say "everyone should reduce their cholesterol".

That book and other stuff I've read proved to me that a HUGE amount of the "anti-fat" research is exceptionally poorly done.   It is indeed anti-fat - it starts anti-fat and ends anti-fat.  It does'nt start as a search for the truth and in the end presents data truthfully.

There is also an institutional, entrenched, anti-fat bias.  It's easier to get papers published if they are against fat and are pro-carbohydrate.

Studies like the Stanford AtoZ study eviscerate Ornish's stance but he won't admit it.

Ornish is Ahab.  Obsessed.  Lost contact with the truth -  He has to hunt his high protein and high fat whale no matter what.

There needs to be a period where  the likes of Ornish are vilified for doing poor science and endangering the public to properly reset the balance.  

       I think there may be some validity to the vegetarian diet Ornish recommends for people with CVD. However, finding that people can improve CVD with a vegetarian diet should not be construed to mean that healthy people should not eat red meat. It's like saying that diabetes can be controlled with insulin shots, therefore everyone should take insulin shots.  
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TalkingRat

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 02:59:36 PM »

In non-diabetics, protein has 2-3 times the effect of fat in controlling glycemic response, with fiber+protein having an even larger effect.  Here's a study, with many unexpected findings for the researchers.  If I'm reading it right (you can check my interpretation), they speculated that the difference may be in protein's effect on the insulin component, and that fat was less effective among subjects with higher fasting plasma insulin. 

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/10/2506

Ice cream and icing.  Things that don't go well with fiber and protein.   :P


I wonder what he includes as "vegetable oil" - there is much variation in the omega3 content of plant-based oils.
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Pip

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Re: Dean Ornish, M.D: High protein diet makes us sick and fat
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 03:40:41 PM »

They used corn oil and soy protein. Very politically correct. Corn oil doesn't have that much saturated fat. And at the end of the study they say, "These conclusions may not apply to solid meals." Wha?  How many people are on a liquid diet?

How about a study using real food? Is that too hard to do?
The same study, but done with coconut oil or animal fat vs. lean meat. Now, that would be interesting.

Also, they should try it backwards - feed the protein or oil first and see who gets less of an insulin spike.
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