Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/aleche35/boards.sethroberts.net/Sources/Load.php(183) : runtime-created function on line 3
criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin

sethroberts.net forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Please read The End Game: Shutting Down the Forums in the "News, Polls, Announcements" subforum

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin  (Read 13595 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bleeding

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74

I've been reading some people's thoughts here & there on these forums about glycemic index.

I'm surprised that people are still taking GI seriously because the stuff I've been reading recently has mostly been very critical of GI.

here's just one example, and this is over 3 years old already

http://www.alanaragon.com/elements-challenging-the-validity-of-the-glycemic-index.html

Lots of folk also seem to think insulin is just about sugar in the blood.  It's not.  Some amino acids all by themselves can give a huge insulin spike.  This never happens in nature as you never find single amino acids, but the point's still valid- zero carbohydrate milk (cottage cheese)  in the short run causes almost zero blood sugar increase but fairly large insulin increase. 

Insulin is about general storage - storage of fat, protein & carbohydrate. 

Not specifically about blood sugar.    And while an all fat meal has next to zero effect on insulin, insulin has huge effects on fat.

so the [(effect of fat) → insulin] is nil

but [(effect of insulin) → fat] is huge
Logged

NTB

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
    • Getting Stronger
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 01:52:46 PM »

Lots of folk also seem to think insulin is just about sugar in the blood.  It's not.  Some amino acids all by themselves can give a huge insulin spike.  This never happens in nature as you never find single amino acids, but the point's still valid- zero carbohydrate milk (cottage cheese)  in the short run causes almost zero blood sugar increase but fairly large insulin increase. 

Insulin is about general storage - storage of fat, protein & carbohydrate. 

Not specifically about blood sugar.    And while an all fat meal has next to zero effect on insulin, insulin has huge effects on fat.

so the [(effect of fat) → insulin] is nil

but [(effect of insulin) → fat] is huge

Bleeding, you are correct.  Carbohydrate is not the only thing that can induce an insulin response.  Protein -- especially certain types of protein -- can also induce an insulin response.  However, protein also induces a simulataneous glucagon response, which tends to largely (but not totally) counteract the insulin response.  Certain proteins, like eggs, have very low insulin responses.  Others, like cheese, are somewhat higher.  Very large protein meals (huge steaks) will spike insulin, so it is best to eat moderate portions.

I would qualify the last statement of yours that "insulin has huge effects on fat".  While that is true, the insulin has to first be generated by carbohydrate or protein.  So eating fat without carbs or protein will not produce any insulin, and fat cannot be stored.  Furthermore, even with insulin, the free fatty acids that enter the blood stream cannot be laid down as fat in the adipose tissue unless there is a corresponding amount of glucose.  Glucose (6 carbons) breaks down to two glycerols (3 carbons) and a glycerol backbone is needed in order for 3 fatty acids to attach and form a tri-glyceride.  Without any glucose in the meal (or glucose from converted protein), the fatty acids just continue to circulate, get burned as energy, or get excreted. 

You just can't get fat on fat alone...you need the "glue" of glucose to bind it into the fat cells.

Eat fat to lose weight...with fat as food you are "training" your metabolism to switch over and start burning fat.  So long as glucose is elevated in the bloodstream, you just aren't going to burn much fat.

Agree?
Logged
Click HERE to check out the Deconditioning Diet and other self-improvement ideas on my blog "Getting Stronger"

bleeding

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 06:23:06 PM »

the effects of glucagon are largely limited to the liver - it's far more limited than insulin - its effects are nowhere near as systemic and general as insulin. 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=HVYyRsuUEc0C&pg=PA399&lpg=PA399&dq=glucagon+%22limited+to+the+liver%22&source=bl&ots=AHsl6sklU3&sig=EM5TR79TktJ8F1pA08oze_H8i1I&hl=en&ei=CgpZS_D5McK3lAeKzYD2Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=glucagon%20%22limited%20to%20the%20liver%22&f=false

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=glucagon+%22limited+to+the+liver%22&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

and you can store fat without insulin ... I put on a lot of weight one time around 4 years ago eating near zero carbs - it's one of the reasons I'm on this forum

google for "Acylation Stimulating Protein".  this can pack away fat with zero need for insulin

Both of these posts below are from low - carbohydrate diet advocates

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/lex%27s-journal/550/
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search?q=acylation

Lots of folk also seem to think insulin is just about sugar in the blood.  It's not.  Some amino acids all by themselves can give a huge insulin spike.  This never happens in nature as you never find single amino acids, but the point's still valid- zero carbohydrate milk (cottage cheese)  in the short run causes almost zero blood sugar increase but fairly large insulin increase. 

Insulin is about general storage - storage of fat, protein & carbohydrate. 

Not specifically about blood sugar.    And while an all fat meal has next to zero effect on insulin, insulin has huge effects on fat.

so the [(effect of fat) → insulin] is nil

but [(effect of insulin) → fat] is huge

Bleeding, you are correct.  Carbohydrate is not the only thing that can induce an insulin response.  Protein -- especially certain types of protein -- can also induce an insulin response.  However, protein also induces a simulataneous glucagon response, which tends to largely (but not totally) counteract the insulin response.  Certain proteins, like eggs, have very low insulin responses.  Others, like cheese, are somewhat higher.  Very large protein meals (huge steaks) will spike insulin, so it is best to eat moderate portions.

I would qualify the last statement of yours that "insulin has huge effects on fat".  While that is true, the insulin has to first be generated by carbohydrate or protein.  So eating fat without carbs or protein will not produce any insulin, and fat cannot be stored.  Furthermore, even with insulin, the free fatty acids that enter the blood stream cannot be laid down as fat in the adipose tissue unless there is a corresponding amount of glucose.  Glucose (6 carbons) breaks down to two glycerols (3 carbons) and a glycerol backbone is needed in order for 3 fatty acids to attach and form a tri-glyceride.  Without any glucose in the meal (or glucose from converted protein), the fatty acids just continue to circulate, get burned as energy, or get excreted. 

You just can't get fat on fat alone...you need the "glue" of glucose to bind it into the fat cells.

Eat fat to lose weight...with fat as food you are "training" your metabolism to switch over and start burning fat.  So long as glucose is elevated in the bloodstream, you just aren't going to burn much fat.

Agree?
Logged

NTB

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
    • Getting Stronger
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 09:14:07 PM »

...you can store fat without insulin ... I put on a lot of weight one time around 4 years ago eating near zero carbs - it's one of the reasons I'm on this forum
google for "Acylation Stimulating Protein".  this can pack away fat with zero need for insulin

Thanks, bleeding, I checked out the very interesting Petro Dobromylskyj's Hyperlipid blog post about ASP and its counterpart HSL, bleeding.  (I had seen his site before, but not that particular topic).  Taking a closer look, I'm not too worried. It looks like ASP and HSL are involved in rapid "short term" shuttling of fat between storage and retrieval, as opposed to the slower, longer term storage and retrieval that insulin and glucagon regulate. It's like using the short-term parking lot at the airport:

Quote
[ASP] allows us to store the fat from our current meal as adipose tissue for use in the time before our next meal. On intermittent fasting or once daily eating we HAVE to store an awful lot of fat until we next eat. ASP gets fat in to adipocytes for us, without needing an insulin spike. Good....So, say we are eating once daily, we can assume ASP will store any fat we eat in excess of our immediate needs...[whereas]...HSL supplies FFAs to allow our metabolic activity requirements to be met from adipocytes. A freely available energy supply from adipocytes should reduce the need to obtain energy from food, ie less hunger. Ineffective HSL means you need to eat more, because your fat cells are hanging on to their contents. To paraphrase the whole of Good Calories Bad Calories in one phrase:

Excess weight is the result of a failure of adipocytes to release energy, hunger is needed to supply any shortfall needed for metabolism.

Working on this basis, the requirement for weight loss must be to minimise insulin. This allows metabolism to run on the surplus of adipose tissue energy released over dietary energy consumed. On a high fat diet with low insulin levels ASP will still rapidly store most meal derived fat, HSL will subsequently release it as needed. Ultimately weight loss boils down to lowering insulin levels. So we end up with a need for minimal carbohydrate.... Fat intake should be relatively low...to keep total calories below those needed by our metabolism, otherwise ASP will store more fat than HSL will release. HSL will only ever release enough FFA for the metabolic needs in a healthy person.

So even assuming it is possible to store and retrieve fat without insulin and glucagon, the ASP/HSL exchange appears to be a very short-term, easily reversible kind of short term transaction. If I read this post correctly, it should be relatively easy to reverse this kind of short-term fat accumulation by reducing intake, short term fasting, or---I would assume---intense physical activity. And the existence of this short-term exchange, does not deny the fact that glucose and insulin are still required to "fix" fat in a more lasting way in the adipocytes, by a process that is slower and takes some metabolic re-adjustment to reverse.
Logged
Click HERE to check out the Deconditioning Diet and other self-improvement ideas on my blog "Getting Stronger"

bleeding

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 10:52:19 PM »

yes, the ASP, while storing fat, does not seem to prevent fat RELEASE like insulin does

My recent weight loss has been on a low carbohydrate diet because it feels to me like if I include carbohydrate I'm always hungry,  with even a small amount of carbohydrate (even 2 fruits a day or a couple of slices of bread do me in).

This most recent time on a low carb diet I did not make the mistake of thinking calories do not count - I now know they do.  I  strictly counted calories (actually I weighed out a set of standard diet items and for the next 1.5 years ate strictly from the list).  and used the appetite lowering effect of fat (or the appetite suppressing effect of zero carbohydrate) to help me diet.

Now I am further exploring appetite suppression beyond carbohydrate restriction with Dr. Roberts's techniques. 

...you can store fat without insulin ... I put on a lot of weight one time around 4 years ago eating near zero carbs - it's one of the reasons I'm on this forum
google for "Acylation Stimulating Protein".  this can pack away fat with zero need for insulin

Thanks, bleeding, I checked out the very interesting Petro Dobromylskyj's Hyperlipid blog post about ASP and its counterpart HSL, bleeding.  (I had seen his site before, but not that particular topic).  Taking a closer look, I'm not too worried. It looks like ASP and HSL are involved in rapid "short term" shuttling of fat between storage and retrieval, as opposed to the slower, longer term storage and retrieval that insulin and glucagon regulate. It's like using the short-term parking lot at the airport:

Quote
[ASP] allows us to store the fat from our current meal as adipose tissue for use in the time before our next meal. On intermittent fasting or once daily eating we HAVE to store an awful lot of fat until we next eat. ASP gets fat in to adipocytes for us, without needing an insulin spike. Good....So, say we are eating once daily, we can assume ASP will store any fat we eat in excess of our immediate needs...[whereas]...HSL supplies FFAs to allow our metabolic activity requirements to be met from adipocytes. A freely available energy supply from adipocytes should reduce the need to obtain energy from food, ie less hunger. Ineffective HSL means you need to eat more, because your fat cells are hanging on to their contents. To paraphrase the whole of Good Calories Bad Calories in one phrase:

So even assuming it is possible to store and retrieve fat without insulin and glucagon, the ASP/HSL exchange appears to be a very short-term, easily reversible kind of short term transaction. If I read this post correctly, it should be relatively easy to reverse this kind of short-term fat accumulation by reducing intake, short term fasting, or---I would assume---intense physical activity. And the existence of this short-term exchange, does not deny the fact that glucose and insulin are still required to "fix" fat in a more lasting way in the adipocytes, by a process that is slower and takes some metabolic re-adjustment to reverse.
Logged

Pinkmug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4323
  • Lisboa Portugal
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 02:50:45 AM »

I must be one of those you say take GI seriously, but make no mistake, I don't confuse GI with the glycemic load and it's the latter that should be observed!
Logged
A calorie is just a bug that lives in the closet and shrinks your clothes overnight

kt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • missing a lot of meals
    • How I've lost weight with SLD, then daytime fast:
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2010, 06:32:45 AM »

Yeah, Pinkmug, glycemic load charts are a great guideline, as are the load-based South Beach lists.

Whole foods, that's the solution...I even saw something recently (here?) about eating the whole animal (fat, seal blubber, dark meat poultry)...for you compulsive animal consumers.  I'm pretty sure I couldn't eat a 10 oz. steak if I had to eat the fat with it, or the skin with the chicken! 

Variety, and whole foods, and never eat sugary treats (ice cream, etc.) unless your belly is already full of mitigating whole foods...

Logged


Pinkmug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4323
  • Lisboa Portugal
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2010, 03:52:08 PM »

Oh! Kt!! you reminded me of something!!
When I went 'macrobiotic', I learned something about eating the whole animal or plant. Not meat because meat is too "yang", but for example fish, vegs, were acceptable as long as they were small and could be eaten as a whole.

And BTW, I recently found a packet of brown rice in the pantry (new years cleaning LOL :))) and I've been eating brown rice and lo and behold, the trains are leaving the station very regularly, and even my belly seems smaller!

Anyway about the whole plant or fish; the macrobiotic philosophy was the plant or animal is a balanced aggregate, if you slice it and eat just part of it you don't get all that balance.
Logged
A calorie is just a bug that lives in the closet and shrinks your clothes overnight

kt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • missing a lot of meals
    • How I've lost weight with SLD, then daytime fast:
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2010, 07:22:58 PM »

Hah!  Pinkmug, you made me laugh!

I respect your granola nature...I'm sitting here reading a brain neuroplasticity book with an Intro by the Dalai Lama, and enjoyed your earlier sentient beings notes.

I'm glad the station's running well!  A soak in Epsom Salts (magnesium and sulfate) can keep things going...read something about osmosis, the gut, and skewed (high on the calcium end) magnesium/calcium ratio somewhere.

My sister-in-law was telling me about black chicken they were making (she's a naturopath)...a food from China/traditional medicine.  The meat is black, full of iron and other things, and it made me wonder what we miss out on when we avoid the darker stuff (in fish, pork, poultry).  I guess the macro idea could be that if another living thing incorporated all of those nutrients, we probably need a majority of them, too.

How old was that rice?

 :?

Kate

Logged


kt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • missing a lot of meals
    • How I've lost weight with SLD, then daytime fast:
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2010, 07:24:50 PM »

Oh - I missed the "yang" meat comment...maybe that's my honey's problem (too warm, etc.).  Should men avoid yang too, even though it's their essence, as I understood it?
Logged


Pinkmug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4323
  • Lisboa Portugal
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2010, 06:48:51 AM »

Oh haha the rice was one month past expiry LOL

Mmm i seem to  recall yang is connected to aggressiveness, masculine, action, noise, football, baseball,  :D
Yin is sweet, calm, feminine, fluffy, gentle, etc.

For a balanced person, a balance of yin/yang is fine. for imbalances we should eat the other direction.

Thats why a living being (plant or animal) must be eaten in its entirety, because some parts are more yin and other more yang. the whole is balanced. I don't remember if a small animal is acceptable like small birds. Small fish are acceptable.

But some vegs are imbalanced and so a no-no for example tomatoes.
Logged
A calorie is just a bug that lives in the closet and shrinks your clothes overnight

kt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • missing a lot of meals
    • How I've lost weight with SLD, then daytime fast:
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 07:52:39 PM »

Oh, that's awful!  I've been stuffing him full of tomatoes for four years!!!

Poor guy!

Kate
Logged


Pinkmug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4323
  • Lisboa Portugal
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2010, 03:02:34 AM »

LOL take it with a grain of salt since on the other hand tomato is touted for anti-cancer properties especially prostate cancer.
Logged
A calorie is just a bug that lives in the closet and shrinks your clothes overnight

teaser

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: criticism of glycemic index and common knowledge about insulin
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 08:11:50 PM »

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/145/2/839

Quote
Our previous study (10) revealed that receptor cells of the taste sensory system were affected by leptin. The db/db mouse, which has defects in the functional receptor Ob-Rb, displays enhanced neural responses and elevated behavioral preference to sweet stimuli (20, 21) because of defects in leptin suppression of sweet responses in the taste system that healthy mice normally possess (10, 27). Here, we showed expression of the functional Ob-Rb receptor in taste cells of lean and ob/ob mice but not in the db/db mice. By binding the receptor in taste cells, the hormone partially suppresses taste cell responses and inhibits afferent signals indicating sweet taste. The blunting of sweet taste leads to a decrease in consumption of sweet solutions in mice demonstrated by the present study. Thus, leptin may influence food intake not only through the central nervous system but also at a peripheral level acting as a sweet-sensing modulator.


http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/293/4/R1468

Quote
Leptin reduces body fat selectively, sparing body protein. Accordingly, during chronic leptin administration, food intake is suppressed, and body weight is reduced until body fat is depleted. Body weight then stabilizes at this fat-depleted nadir, while food intake returns to normal caloric levels, presumably in defense of energy and nutritional homeostasis. This model of leptin treatment offers the opportunity to examine controls of food intake that are independent of leptin's actions, and provides a window for examining the nature of feeding controls in a "fatless" animal. Here we evaluate macronutrient selection during this fat-depleted phase of leptin treatment. Adult, male Sprague-Dawley rats were maintained on standard pelleted rodent chow and given daily lateral ventricular injections of leptin or vehicle solution until body weight reached the nadir point and food intake returned to normal levels. Injections were then continued for 8 days, during which rats self-selected their daily diet from separate sources of carbohydrate, protein, and fat. Macronutrient choice differed profoundly in leptin and control rats. Leptin rats exhibited a dramatic increase in protein intake, whereas controls exhibited a strong carbohydrate preference. Fat intake did not differ between groups at any time during the 8-day test. Despite these dramatic differences in macronutrient selection, total daily caloric intake did not differ between groups except on day 2. Thus controls of food intake related to ongoing metabolic and nutritional requirements may supersede the negative feedback signals related to body fat stores.


Insulin is a general storage hormone, yes. But, glucose is special. Transporting glucose into a cell, or protein, or, fat, why would you expect all of these actions to have the same consequences? The carbohydrate hypothesis does not depend on Alan Aragon's understanding of insulin, there's more to it than that.

A lot of diets are popping up extolling the virtues of high carb for serotonin. I found this yesterday;

http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/report/2009/pdf/med09_09_1.pdf

I understand this study even less than I do the last two I posted. :shock: But look at the title;

"A Serotonin-Dependent Mechanism Explains
the Leptin Regulation of BoneMass,
Appetite, and Energy Expenditure"

Here's the bit I understand. In pre-vertebrates, serotonin is a "hunger" hormone, promoting food consumption. In humans and other boned creatures, brain-serotonin has been described as a satiation-hormone, but I don't think that's correct. You eat carbs; protein is sucked into your muscles, etc; blood tryptophan goes up, tryptophan transport into the brain goes up, serotonin goes up. You stop eating according to this theory, once you get that serotonin "buzz". But-- pursuing that serotonin buzz, wouldn't that be part of the conditioned response that set off the feeding behaviour in the first place? The rats in that second study I posted don't seem to be interested in carbs, with all that extra leptin. So, in vertebrates, maybe the direct stimulus of serotonin that occurs in more primitive creatures is rerouted into a conditioned response, with eventually the same consequence, weight gain. Or maybe the theory that serotonin is a satiation hormone at all is simply a myth. Seratonin tells you you've had enough bread in much the same way dopamine lets you know when you've had enough cocaine.  :?


Quote
Leptin inhibition of bone mass accrual requires the
integrity of specific hypothalamic neurons but not
expression of its receptor on these neurons. The
same is true for its regulation of appetite and energy
expenditure. This suggests that leptin acts elsewhere
in the brain to achieve these three functions.Weshow
here that brainstem-derived serotonin (BDS) favors
bone mass accrual following its binding to Htr2c
receptors on ventromedial hypothalamic neurons
and appetite via Htr1a and 2b receptors on arcuate
neurons. Leptin inhibits these functions and increases
energy expenditure because it reduces serotonin
synthesis and firing of serotonergic neurons. Accordingly,
while abrogating BDS synthesis corrects the
bone, appetite and energy expenditure phenotypes
caused by leptin deficiency, inactivation of the leptin
receptor in serotonergic neurons recapitulates them
fully. This study modifies the map of leptin signaling
in the brain and identifies a molecular basis for the
common regulation of bone and energy metabolisms.

Knocking out brain derived serotonin in leptin deficient mice keeps them from becoming obese, but it also ruins their bones. Leptin decreases appetite at least partly by decreasing the action of serotonin.

Leptin resistance could mean stronger bones. Which makes sense, larger people need stronger bones. Weight bearing exercise? Eating carbs isn't the only thing that promotes muscle synthesis, which clears proteins that compete with tryptophan for uptake into the brain. Lift weights, serotonin maybe goes up, appetite goes up, bones get stronger, muscles get bigger... and maybe, depending on your personal metabolism, there's a lot of stuff going on, you even get fatter.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18