I must have added the cottage cheese and beef examples after you replied. More suggestive data points suggesting SLD doesn't do its work directly through insulin control
You seem to be convinced that AS from SLD derives not from cephalic phase insulin, but from some other mechanism.
I'm not convinced of anything. I don't see strong evidence for the proposition.
I'm trying to understand the logic here, but I must admit I'm struggling. I do not understand why eliminating the cephalic phase insulin would let more glucose "get through to the bloodstream"
The liver sits between the body and the digestive tract. Glucose doesn't flood the entire body after digestion, with fat cells grabbing what they can and the liver fighting for its scraps. Food digested in the intestines is collected into the hepatic vein and goes mostly through the liver first then to "the rest of the body". After the liver there's no more processing before food gets to "the body".
If the liver processes some glucose, the processed glucose does not get to "the body". It's an either/or situation- either the liver gets it or "the rest of the body" gets it. If one gets more, the other gets less. And the liver gets first call. And if there's cephalic insulin, the liver gets first call on that too, because insulin's dumped directly, right into the liver (into the hepatic vein, right before it enters the liver). Insulin has a much greater effect on the liver than on any other organ, any muscle, any fat cell, any skin cell ... because the liver gets whacked with the concentrated dose, directly, PLUS the liver destroys insulin - reducing "the rest of the body" 's exposure. http://www.medbio.info/Horn/Time%203-4/homeostasis_2.htm
>>> Insulin is destroyed in the liver, the half-life being approximately 5 minutes. The rate of secretion of insulin is, therefore, difficult to measure.
If the liver has been prepped by insulin it will grab more glucose (for liver glycogen, for the liver's own energy purposes, also for a couple of enzyme systems - I think the mixed function oxidases use a little) than if the liver has had no insulin.
Basic energy balance. "in minus out = (accumulated or destroyed)"
Without the cephalic response, lots of glucose gets through the liver before significant insulin is delivered to the liver.
I've run hundreds of simulations like this in my (unfortunately long deceased) engineering career. Just laying out the flow and order of nutrients gave me a feel for who (which organ/tissue, or translated to industrial simulation, which tank or plate or bed) would end up with what.
Finally, in response to your question regarding evidence that cephalic phase insulin has ever been extinguished. I have multiple pieces of evidence to support this:
1. Direct evidence from the great Ivan Pavlov himself.
Good for salivation, what about insulin?
and yes, salivation ... so a reflex conditioned over a couple of months took several weeks to die out.
And the insulin reflex, conditioned and reinforced over say 30 years, will die out in 2 days?
And I posted a (weak-evidence) review article that showed that blocking cephalic responses did not alter learned eating behaviors.
There are some learned behaviors that never go away ... I posted some examples above. Moshe Feldenkrais, who studied Pavlov and his contemporaries deeply, I think in the 70s had lists of learned behaviors that, once developed, never go away. I've forgotten most of the list unfortunately.
And now let's suppose for the moment that you are correct--that cephalic phase insulin response does not explain why SLD works? Do you have an alternate explanation?
The fact that the phenomenon was predicted by a different theory lends heavy support to that theory. But I see deficiencies for Dr. Roberts' proposed Leptin mechanism.
later addition: actually it wasn't one phenomenon, but several different phenomena/techniques predicted by the theory. That did impress me. Let's see if it actually works for me.
I'm searching for an explanation, something that will keep it off this time. I'd rather have a correct answer and have my fat problem solved than accept an incorrect answer that temporarily satisfies me and have to solve it again 2 or 3 years from now, for the 10th time.
I've been through this cycle too many times, from Pritikin (yes, you read that right) on down to today, to let myself pat myself on the back, again, at having succeeded, and let my guard down and let the whole thing repeat itself AGAIN.
Low carb plus counting calories plus resistance training is working, and I'd like to keep on top of developments so I can nip the problem in the bud if it starts again. Insulin control looks like an important ingredient but it's not the holy grail.
Next time I get a block of time I'll go through some of the literature Dr. Roberts used to develop the theory and see where I can go from there. That's a different world to me.
We should agree to end this amicably soon and resume in a couple of months as more old papers are found and the science moves on. Maybe there is an old paper showing extinction of the cephalic insulin response/reflex. That would go a way toward establishing this as a good mechanism for the effect.
I really DO NOT have an answer. I am seeking one.