Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/aleche35/boards.sethroberts.net/Sources/Load.php(183) : runtime-created function on line 3
rs-px continues the struggle :)

sethroberts.net forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Please read The End Game: Shutting Down the Forums in the "News, Polls, Announcements" subforum

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: rs-px continues the struggle :)  (Read 17558 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Heidi 555

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1675
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2008, 07:04:00 PM »

I think I'm with you on the emotional response, too.  My family is just like yours.  Everything revolves around food.  They talk about what they're going to have for the next meal before they've even finished the one they're on.  Food is love and togetherness.  I can't imagine my family getting together without food. 

The emotional connection to food is VERY deeply conditioned.  I'm not even going to attempt to get rid of it.  It's too deeply embedded in my psyche.  Like any addict, I'm not willing to give up my drug.  SLD gives me a way to indulge my addiction and no longer gain weight.  I'm happy that it's been tempered, but still glad to be able to receive so much pleasure from food.  (Though having really good AS for a time was a relief.) 

Here's a question to ponder: If weight were not an issue (meaning you weighed exactly what you wanted without effort) would you prefer to be passionate about eating and able to consume as much as you wanted whenever you wanted, or would you prefer to be detached and not have much interest in food and eating?

My husband is skinny and so much more detached around food.  He does still have his indulgences, though.  Genetically, he seems set up to be thin.  Emotions play into it, but I'm not sure that they're at the core of it.  It's too easy for him to be thin.
Logged
It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

rs-px

  • Guest
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2008, 12:56:37 AM »

The emotional connection to food is VERY deeply conditioned.  I'm not even going to attempt to get rid of it.  It's too deeply embedded in my psyche.  Like any addict, I'm not willing to give up my drug.  SLD gives me a way to indulge my addiction and no longer gain weight.  I'm happy that it's been tempered, but still glad to be able to receive so much pleasure from food.  (Though having really good AS for a time was a relief.) 

Interestingly, this was something that I decided to tackle right at the beginning of my SLD experience, because I knew it was key. You're right when you say it's a sacrifice, but it's really more of a trade-off. When the AS was at its strongest, I was surprised when I realized how much of a presence food was in my life. I got very bored in the evening because my usual hobby of eating wasn't open to me any longer.

Quote
Here's a question to ponder: If weight were not an issue (meaning you weighed exactly what you wanted without effort) would you prefer to be passionate about eating and able to consume as much as you wanted whenever you wanted, or would you prefer to be detached and not have much interest in food and eating?

My husband is skinny and so much more detached around food.  He does still have his indulgences, though.  Genetically, he seems set up to be thin.  Emotions play into it, but I'm not sure that they're at the core of it.  It's too easy for him to be thin.

I don't think you can be thin and also be passionate about eating in the way fat people are. It's like saying, "Would you like to be a lazy athlete?" The two personality states are incompatible. I've always wanted food to be a practical element of my life. Eat to live, not live to eat. That's not to say I can't enjoy food.

Some thin people "love food" but, as you say, there's a detachment there. It's more intellectualized, and rather less emotional. Fat people love food in the same way a child loves its mother. Thin people love food in the same way that a home owner loves a new piece of furniture.
Logged

Heidi 555

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1675
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2008, 05:55:08 AM »

Quote
The only subject I have to test this on is myself. When I started with my nose-clipped Coke, I felt no real emotions when drinking the cans. I was actually more curious and scientific at that stage. That was when the AS was crazy, and I could literally go days without eating. As time has gone on, I've got to like my nose-clipped cans of Coke more and more. I enjoy their sweetness. Remember that none of the flavor is getting up my nose---I make sure of that. But that sweetness is nice.

More than that, the nose-clipped cans of Coke have become routine, and taken on the properties of eating meals. I think there's some significance there.
I think that I get almost as much enjoyment out of nose clipping a treat as I do with eating it unclipped. 

Yesterday I mixed a small amount of vinegar and molasses together and ate it noseclipped instead of dessert.  It was not sweet and pleasant as dessert would be but seemed to give good AS.  I will continue to experiment with the vinegar and perhaps some other unpalatable combos.

Quote
I don't think you can be thin and also be passionate about eating in the way fat people are. It's like saying, "Would you like to be a lazy athlete?" The two personality states are incompatible. I've always wanted food to be a practical element of my life. Eat to live, not live to eat. That's not to say I can't enjoy food.
Great analogy!  I think I'd like to be a lazy athlete if I could, just have natural effortless athletic ability without having to train hard.  I'll have to think about it more, you might be right. 

I just want to be able to eat as much as I want and never gain weight.  SLD has given me a way to do that.  Do you think that there are degrees to food passion and being fat.  I've always been slightly overweight but never really fat, but very passionate and emotional about food and eating.  Both of my parents have been overweight their entire lives, and I have a sibling who has always been obese. A few other siblings are overweight but not really fat.  I'm the only thin one, thanks to SLD, but I really relate to the fat mentality.  I was raised upon it. 
Logged
It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

Oslo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 483
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2008, 08:01:56 AM »

Against my better judgment I am going to comment on this.  I think you are barking up the wrong tree, unless you are going to say exceptions to the concept are "fat people in thin bodies" or vice versa.   I am crazy about food and cooking.   CRAZY!   There are great chefs who aren't fat.  Like Heidi, never obese, but I was long time chubby.  I'm not anymore.  I care just as much for food.  I had an obese roommate all summer who was obsessed with eating, but it had nothing to do with love.   She never looked at her food, she watched TV and shoveled it in.   The whole idea of trying to become repulsed by food, I think is a sad approach to losing weight, and very unlikely to be successful.  We are alive and have to eat, and sleep.  To be averse to either of these things, which we have no choice but to spend much of our lives doing, is not going to allow for happiness or contentedness in this world.  Presuming that is of some interest, I  humbly suggest the idea of differentiating between love and compulsion  - back to the parent child analogy, or romantic love - the cliche works here too - if you love something - let it go, set it free.    I think that is the thing to try to figure out how to do.    Also - like being interested in one's child or partner or whatever - a rich love to me means wanting to learn all about it - and with food that means gaining knowledge about nutrition - and with optimal nutrition, a healthy weight is reached - no way around it.
Logged
Looking for a point of natural easy-to-maintain stability with a BMI 20-21.  Down from 23+.

rs-px

  • Guest
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2008, 07:43:50 AM »

Against my better judgment I am going to comment on this.  I think you are barking up the wrong tree, unless you are going to say exceptions to the concept are "fat people in thin bodies" or vice versa.   I am crazy about food and cooking.   CRAZY!   There are great chefs who aren't fat.  Like Heidi, never obese, but I was long time chubby.  I'm not anymore.  I care just as much for food.  I had an obese roommate all summer who was obsessed with eating, but it had nothing to do with love.   She never looked at her food, she watched TV and shoveled it in.   The whole idea of trying to become repulsed by food, I think is a sad approach to losing weight, and very unlikely to be successful.  We are alive and have to eat, and sleep.  To be averse to either of these things, which we have no choice but to spend much of our lives doing, is not going to allow for happiness or contentedness in this world.  Presuming that is of some interest, I  humbly suggest the idea of differentiating between love and compulsion  - back to the parent child analogy, or romantic love - the cliche works here too - if you love something - let it go, set it free.    I think that is the thing to try to figure out how to do.    Also - like being interested in one's child or partner or whatever - a rich love to me means wanting to learn all about it - and with food that means gaining knowledge about nutrition - and with optimal nutrition, a healthy weight is reached - no way around it.

Hi Olso -- it shouldn't be against your better judgement to comment on this :) All comments invited!

We're not trying to become repulsed by food. We're testing a theory about how SLD works.

Is there a difference between these phrases?

"I love food!"
"I luurrrve food!"
"I really, really love food!"

I'd say there is.

A friend once told me that the reason he drove fast was because he loved speed. I said that he should just get over it, but he said, "No, you don't understand. I really, really love speed."

He couldn't explain why. It was innate. Driving fast did something for him on a deep level. Yes, this is a compulsion, but that doesn't satisfactorily explain it in my opinion. If only it were that simple. In driving fast, he's satisfying an emotional need.

I think this is the kind of differentiation we have to try and quantify here.

I think obese people love food in an emotional way that can't be explained. It's almost on a level with addiction. It satisfies an emotional need in them. It's important to say that this doesn't mean they're maladjusted, or "missing something" in their life. This may/may not be the case, but I think it's a logical leap too far to make that kind of assumption (besides which, lots of thin people are "missing something" or are maladjusted, and they aren't obese).
 
You could probably get away with saying that a fat person's relationship with food is broken, because there are clear physiological symptoms, but the cure is far from clear. This is why doctors make me angry. They entirely ignore this element. It sounds so trivial too, and like a personality defect that can be easy erradicated, but if it is then there would no hardly any obese people in the world. If there is a cure, either easy or complicated, I'd love to hear about it. Notably, fat people themselves often underplay this element, as if it isn't important: "All I have to do is eat 1,500 calories a day, I'll lose weight. How hard can that be?" Very, as billions of people have found out. Again, if it were easy, we'd all do it.

This is why SLD is so astonishing. When it works it blasts away this relationship, or at least it did for me. In one of his interviews Seth points out how surprised he was that SLD helped people like me (I forget how he referred to them, but it was something like 'long-term fat people'; people who had tried everything else).

The emotional response to food that we're talking about could probably be cured easily with cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), or other psychotherapy. But that's long-winded, and expensive and, again, people tend to think of this kind of thing as an easily curable character defect that something more deep rooted.

There are other types of fat people other than those I'm talking about above. There are people who are fat because they've had a baby, for example. The equivalent for men seems to happen when they get married---they just pile on the pounds, because life is good. But I'm talking about a specific subset of people, of which there are very many around the world.

Logged

rs-px

  • Guest
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2008, 07:53:11 AM »

Consider love this way too:

1) I love my partner with all my heart.

2) I love my brother but, to be honest, I can't stand to be around him for more than a day or two and I spend a lot of the time thinking he's an idiot.

These are two different kinds of love. I think the emotional "love" of food we're talking about is category number two. It's ingrained. Born of familiarity. Entirely deep-rooted.
Logged

rs-px

  • Guest
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2008, 07:58:04 AM »

I believe that for many of us that have weight issues, emotional eating results from attempting to change the way we feel.

So do you agree that SLD works because it avoids this emotional response to food by cutting out the flavor component?
Logged

Kirk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 264
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2008, 08:27:35 PM »

I have a slightly different theory for my body.  It's based upon articles such as http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/AR2006122001271.html .   (It's been mentioned before in at least one other SLD thread, but the current generation of SLD forum readers may not have seen it.)  My belief is that in some of us, the mix of bacteria we're hosting sends a much stronger pain signal than in other people.  It's not surprising that some people will learn to love the thing that helps them avoid pain. 

I believe Heidi555 mentioned once that oil seems to work differently (perhaps more strongly) than other SLD tactics (hope I'm not misremembering).  In the context of my theory, there could be something about oil which the bacteria find very confusing.

This bacteria theory also explains why 50% of the people, as Stephen M commented at http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=6613.msg73932#msg73932 , easily solve their hunger problems with SLD.  Their bacteria are sufficiently confused by SLD tactics.  And meanwhile those of us in that other 50%, sitting on a stall point, are running daily experiments trying to determine how to lose that weight, now that at least SLD tactics have helped reduce some of the hunger which caused us to previously go on binges. 

Few things are simple and universal.  I remember quitting cigarettes over 35 years ago; there were so many reasons to smoke . . . the physical addition, the pleasure of a ritual, having something to do with ones hands and mouth, the comradeship of the guilty smoking conspirators, the ability to create sculptures in air, and so on and so on.  Emotions were part of that and emotions could be part of some people's eating.  For my body, it doesn't seem to be emotions causing the issue.  My problem is, I'm too hungry and have too little willpower to resist.   
Logged

rs-px

  • Guest
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2008, 01:43:08 AM »

I have a slightly different theory for my body.  It's based upon articles such as http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/AR2006122001271.html .   (It's been mentioned before in at least one other SLD thread, but the current generation of SLD forum readers may not have seen it.)  My belief is that in some of us, the mix of bacteria we're hosting sends a much stronger pain signal than in other people.  It's not surprising that some people will learn to love the thing that helps them avoid pain. 

I believe Heidi555 mentioned once that oil seems to work differently (perhaps more strongly) than other SLD tactics (hope I'm not misremembering).  In the context of my theory, there could be something about oil which the bacteria find very confusing.

This bacteria theory also explains why 50% of the people, as Stephen M commented at http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=6613.msg73932#msg73932 , easily solve their hunger problems with SLD.  Their bacteria are sufficiently confused by SLD tactics.  And meanwhile those of us in that other 50%, sitting on a stall point, are running daily experiments trying to determine how to lose that weight, now that at least SLD tactics have helped reduce some of the hunger which caused us to previously go on binges. 

Few things are simple and universal.  I remember quitting cigarettes over 35 years ago; there were so many reasons to smoke . . . the physical addition, the pleasure of a ritual, having something to do with ones hands and mouth, the comradeship of the guilty smoking conspirators, the ability to create sculptures in air, and so on and so on.  Emotions were part of that and emotions could be part of some people's eating.  For my body, it doesn't seem to be emotions causing the issue.  My problem is, I'm too hungry and have too little willpower to resist.   

Hi Kirk -- that's a fascinating article, thanks. No, I'd not seen it before, but I'm relatively new here (just about four months into my SLD experiment). Have you tried acting on this information, perhaps with a broad-spectrum probiotic tablet? One of the specialized tablets, rather than the fashionable "yoghurt drinks" you find nowadays? I experimented with some of these broad-spectrum tablets a year or so ago, and I seemed to get inner-ear trouble (dizzy spells), so I stopped. I've a feeling that the inner-ear problem was accidental, because I can't see any kind of biological link, and I might try again.

There's a lot of hype about intestinal flora right now, and I've also been reading-up on the link between gut bacteria and autism. I myself seem to go through regular phases of being intellectually sharp, and being intellectually dull (I've calculated my biorhythms, just out of interest, but there's absolutely no correlation.). I'm in a phase of being smart as a button right now :) I've started to wonder if gut flora has a bearing on this.



Logged

m.c.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 747
    • Pluckychickenheart
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2008, 05:10:44 AM »

Fascinating.

Rs-px,

Alas the vinegar/sugar combo does not work for me. I like the taste. I've always enjoyed super sour and super sweet tastes. Even noseclipped its just not repugnant.

Crap.

Two weeks of oil and noseclipping and my weight is up 3 lbs. Or merely fluctuating the 3 lbs or so it always does every month at this time. Bottom line still no real movement down or decrease in body fat. Same s;;;;;t for the past 8 months. I want to scream. This was my life pre SLD over 2 years ago. Granted 12 lbs heavier but still.

AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGG.

No mood swings happening here. no sireee. :x
Logged
Have arrived at the new Normal.

Heidi 555

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1675
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2008, 05:27:56 AM »

Very interesting article Kirk.  You might want to post it in its own thread.  I've never read about that theory before.  I also searched for the thread where it was mentioned before, but couldn't find it. 

rs-px, I tried the AC vinegar and molasses mix at the end of a nose clipped lunch again.  It really stops the food cravings at least for that meal.

m.c., I wouldn't evaluate your weight loss or the effectiveness of what you're doing until after TOM.  If any positive results occur, they usually don't show until then.
Logged
It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

m.c.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 747
    • Pluckychickenheart
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2008, 05:37:22 AM »

Acccch.... I know you are right Heidi. I've just hit that critical frustrating point in attempting weight loss where valiant effort has not effected any results. Of course patience is key but patience is easier to come by when you've seen results. Its been SOOOOO Long since I've seen any change at all for my work that I feel exasperated. But I will hang in there.
Logged
Have arrived at the new Normal.

Kirk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 264
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2008, 07:34:46 AM »

Well, my theory is just a theory, which started from a nugget of scientific fact.  I haven't figured out how to do anything with it.  It does serve as a metaphor for what might be going on.  (Just like 100 years ago the brain was described as being a 'giant switchboard', and 50 years ago the brain was described as a 'giant computer' and recently the brain is described as a 'giant neural network'; the current technology is the metaphor to explain things we don't know).  I like the concept of bacteria controlling my hunger.  Whether that's accurate or not is unknown.  I just mentioned my theory because it is a twist on the 'we are flawed because we are emotionally attached to food' theory.  My theory says, 'We are attached to food because the bacteria make it painful not to be.'  It changes the flaw from a personal one, about which we might feel guilty, to a battle of wits with a bunch of bacteria.  It may not be accurate but I sure feel better about it, and more motivated to take action.

Have I played with probiotics?  Not much more than increasing intake of yogurt and kefir.  (And the advocates of Paleolithic diets would dispute using milk products.)  My take on what the research scientists were saying is that they don't know what all these bacteria are.  My guess is that lots of research money is going into this because a successful solution would result in lucrative revenue streams. 

It still resolves, for those in that 50% group who stall with Pure SLD, that this is a black box testing situation.  Luckily for us, there are a bunch of others out there who have had some success with other tactics.  We can use SLD to stabilize our hunger and then experiment with the other ones.  I hear good things about daily food logs, low-carb, and the workout regimes of the Biggest Loser show.  Those are where I'm starting to experiment.
Logged

rs-px

  • Guest
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2008, 08:10:58 AM »

Well, my theory is just a theory, which started from a nugget of scientific fact.  I haven't figured out how to do anything with it.  It does serve as a metaphor for what might be going on.  (Just like 100 years ago the brain was described as being a 'giant switchboard', and 50 years ago the brain was described as a 'giant computer' and recently the brain is described as a 'giant neural network'; the current technology is the metaphor to explain things we don't know).  I like the concept of bacteria controlling my hunger.  Whether that's accurate or not is unknown.  I just mentioned my theory because it is a twist on the 'we are flawed because we are emotionally attached to food' theory.  My theory says, 'We are attached to food because the bacteria make it painful not to be.'  It changes the flaw from a personal one, about which we might feel guilty, to a battle of wits with a bunch of bacteria.  It may not be accurate but I sure feel better about it, and more motivated to take action.

Have I played with probiotics?  Not much more than increasing intake of yogurt and kefir.  (And the advocates of Paleolithic diets would dispute using milk products.)  My take on what the research scientists were saying is that they don't know what all these bacteria are.  My guess is that lots of research money is going into this because a successful solution would result in lucrative revenue streams. 

It still resolves, for those in that 50% group who stall with Pure SLD, that this is a black box testing situation.  Luckily for us, there are a bunch of others out there who have had some success with other tactics.  We can use SLD to stabilize our hunger and then experiment with the other ones.  I hear good things about daily food logs, low-carb, and the workout regimes of the Biggest Loser show.  Those are where I'm starting to experiment.

Kirk, I find your theory intriguing. A while back on this very thread I made fun of how SLD works. I said it somehow controlled "brain" hunger, and made it possible to override "body" hunger.

http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=6300.msg68707#msg68707

I still believe this is true. I believe that, whatever SLD is, it's an intellectual process. It affects the mind somehow. It gives us the option to override body hunger.

Recently, SLD has stopped working well for me, but I think that it is actually still working. It's just that the "body" hunger has got more aggressive, or perhaps just harder to ignore.

What is "body" hunger? It's a vague feeling in my "stomach" (ie intestines) that they want food, they want to be filled up. I've tried fighting this with antacid tablets but it just makes it more acute, so I don't think it's acid. I suppose that I compare it to an emotion because it feels like an emotion! Something like a feeling of uneasiness, but that's not quite right as a description.

What if you're right, and what if intestinal bacteria have something to do with this? Intestinal bacteria are mostly located in the lower intestines, I believe, but I'm prepared to believe that the whole digestive apparatus is a system, with much intercommunication.

Because of this, I've decided to try again with a broad-spectrum probiotic: Bio-Kult, available here in the UK: http://www.bio-kult.com/

I'm blindly throwing darts at targets here because I know little about probiotics, but this particular brand seems to have everything but the kitchen sink in it, and is also externally validated as being of high quality.

I will, of course, report back here what effect this has, if any.


Logged

rs-px

  • Guest
Re: rs-px continues the struggle :)
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2008, 08:16:47 AM »


Alas the vinegar/sugar combo does not work for me. I like the taste. I've always enjoyed super sour and super sweet tastes. Even noseclipped its just not repugnant.

I'm really sorry to hear this. For what it's worth, I've also given up on vinegar for the moment, because the taste was just too horrible. I've been using malt vinegar, which is the most popular and abundant type here in the UK. I believe those in North America tend to use Apple Cider Vinegar, which has a different and maybe less sour taste. It might be worth experimenting with the various types.

Quote
Two weeks of oil and noseclipping and my weight is up 3 lbs. Or merely fluctuating the 3 lbs or so it always does every month at this time. Bottom line still no real movement down or decrease in body fat. Same s;;;;;t for the past 8 months. I want to scream. This was my life pre SLD over 2 years ago. Granted 12 lbs heavier but still.

AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGG.

If it's any consolation, I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat (I'm male so not prone to monthly cycles). At the moment I'd say SLD works for me 20-30% of the time, whereas it used to work like a charm 100% of the time. This is why I'm messing around here trying different strategies, and trying to figure out how it works. There's something important that we're all missing about the mechanisms involved here.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18