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What's your personal favorite theory?

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wizard

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2008, 02:21:36 PM »

Yes another good point. This is something that needs to be taken into account with the initial theory.

I think the time-a-plenty theory doesn't really work. People used to always eat until they were full. Whatever was left on the "table" was thrown away or went bad. Excessive activity also ensured that any excessive calories would be burnt off.
Clearly there is a difference between merely bland calories and flavourless calories (something which our ancestors would not have available and given the opportunity to consume would probably not)

Now the hard work is moving the mouse cursor ;)
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karky

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2008, 02:58:10 PM »

Quote
Whatever was left on the "table" was thrown away or went bad.

I wish this was true.  Plenty of people in the United States did not have enough to eat in the past, some still don't.  Which is terrible.
My paternal grandfather was the oldest of 11 children during the Great Depression.  They typically would have 1 chicken and not a whole lot more to feed 13 people.  To this day, he still eats the cartilage and all when he is served chicken.  All that is left when he is done is naked bone.  If they did not eat that type of thing when he was a boy, they didn't eat.  Leftovers?  Never heard of them.   And even so, they went hungry a lot.   Not starving to death hungry, but there was rarely enough food to get all of them full/sated.   And that was just one family, not even the worst off.  Ever read The Grapes of Wrath?  That novel caused quite a stir back in 1939 because while it wasn't a true story, it was true to life, and Steinbeck actually downplayed the conditions of the migrant workers in the book.  And I am sure during and after WWII in Europe, you ate what you had, it didn't matter if it tasted good or not, just like in the States.

Also, back in the more distant olden days, spices weren't very plentiful for the common people, and sugar was very expensive.  Most people either used honey or molasses, or nothing.
So I would imagine most of their food was what we would call bland.
And a lot of flavor-calorie association is lost by home preparing food, compared to mass produced food which tastes the same EVERY time you open the box or jar. 
Home cooked food varies just a little every time.  No fresh produce is exactly the same every time.  Maybe this time you added just a pinch more of this or that. 
Not so with mass produced food which is engineered to be exactly the same.  Home cooked food is also not packed to the gills with HFCS.
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karky

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2008, 03:18:35 PM »

and I forgot

The Grapes of Wrath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapes_of_wrath
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lynne

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2008, 06:22:52 PM »

This is all very interesting...but at the end of the day we are just entertaining ourselves with mental gymnastics. I think rs-px is right and we are all (including the anthropologists) just guessing about the lifestyles of our distant relatives. The only thing that seems to be beyond debate is that ingesting flavourless calories reduces appetite dramatically.
Even all the rat trials started making me cross-eyed, because it almost seems that the rats behaviour is influenced by the passionate fervour of whatever scientist is fiddling with them......so many variables that can be interpreted in so many different ways! Not to mention outcomes of one experiment that seem to totally condradict the outcomes of another. I'm so tired of statistics and rat trials, I am just no longer convinced by any of it.
That said I am eternally optimistic that the expaination is right there under our noses and so simple we are all missing it.
Like rs, I think we will find it somewhere in the psysiology of our bodies. Even our psychological state is reflected in our physical bodies at a cellular level (or is it the other way around!)
I DO hate not having answers though, so wont be able to stop myself theorising ad nauseum......but, hey, there are worse ways of spending your time!
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rs-px

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2008, 12:59:39 AM »

I DO hate not having answers though, so wont be able to stop myself theorising ad nauseum......but, hey, there are worse ways of spending your time!


The main thing that's needed is a way of TESTING for the SLD effect. Blood serum, psychological evaluation... It doesn't matter. We can test for the SLD AS or we can test for set point lowering. Again, it doesn't matter. But we need data.

SLD works, clearly, but if its theoretical foundations aren't solid then it can be knocked over easily and will never gain widespread acceptance.

SLD must be unique in all diets in that, as far as I know, this little corner of the Internet is the only community dedicated to it. Compare that to low GI, or low-carb, or even just plain old calorie counting.


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Pinkmug

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2008, 02:17:23 AM »

You could also try to theorize why SLD works so well for some and not for others, who have AS, are eating less food, yet take months and months to lose a single kilo, and when they do usually it's because they used SLD together with another method!!
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rs-px

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2008, 11:08:41 AM »

Has anybody ever suggested that SLD's appetite suppression is not so much about avoiding flavors, but in avoiding sharp contrasts in flavors? This fits in with Seth's bland calories idea. It's not the burger that's to blame. It's the burger in the bread -- two separate tastes. Then the Coke to wash it down and possibly a desert afterwards.

How does any sense distinguish between one thing and another? By contrasts. Literally in the case of sight. In the case of hearing, we need noises to be set against quiet if we are to understand them, otherwise they just become indistinguishable.

I wonder if SLD's effect is less about flavorless or bland calories, than it is about not having more than one flavor at one? And I'm not distinguishing between tongue and aromatic flavors here either -- I'm talking about the overall sense impression give to us by food.

This is why sugar water works. It's only one flavor. I can't think of many foods where there is such a simple "monotone" flavor.
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ShelleyB

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2008, 05:12:13 AM »

What I am convinced of: (based on personal experience)

1. Our bodies do naturally have set points and something has to overcome that set point. 

2. Oil supresses appetite when taken alone yet doesn't when added to carbs

I don't know if the flavorless calories is what is shaking up the set point or if it is the dramatic reduction in calories due to AS. 


Other things can bring about AS...

Low carbing is known for AS.  That is why the Atkins people go through induction. (protien with fat)
Drinking plenty of water helps with AS
Moderate exercise has been known to create AS

In addition, high GI carbs and processed food with additives can create the opposite effect of AS


Maybe it is just the "shake up" of the body that reduces the set point.  Most successful dieters reach some kind of stall (which I would think we be a strong set point)...at that point either they quit the program they are on or do something unique to startle the body out of its lull.  They may exercise really hard or change the type of food they are eating or reduce calories by a lot or binge for a day ...

It seems to me that if it were true about the set point and flavorless calories then NO ONE would be successful without lowering their set point using flavorless calories, but there are people who stay thin on flavorful and repetitive foods.  To be fair though, I do notice that a new flavored meal does not "taste' as good as a remembered meal...even if it is wonderfully prepared. (and I don't want as much of it)


If I eat moderately low carb and drink plenty of water with the oil, I then get a strong enough AS to stay with my plan.  (Moderately low carb and eating less of it...I also try to avoid ditto)


So, these are just my thoughts.  I have no real conclusions.  It does work though, of which I am very grateful.



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ShelleyB

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I had another thought
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2008, 05:17:39 AM »

For those with time on their hands to think through these things:

To me, strong appetite supression feels like mild morning sickness.  It would be interesting to explore what the body is trying to do regarding food avoidance and nutrition during pregnancy that causes appetite supression and see if there is any link to appetite supression for the average person experiencing weight loss and gain.
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Heidi 555

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 09:03:44 AM »

To me, strong appetite supression feels like mild morning sickness. It would be interesting to explore what the body is trying to do regarding food avoidance and nutrition during pregnancy that causes appetite supression and see if there is any link to appetite supression for the average person experiencing weight loss and gain.
I agree.  The AS seems very connected to hormones.
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Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

Eman Resu

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My Set Point Problem
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 07:51:33 AM »

No, it's not that I keep losing tennis tournaments. It's that I can't quite figure out the following:

How does a body with a hamburger still in the belly become convinced that food is not plentiful and that therefore its set point should become lower?

I could understand if we only drank oil, all day, every day, for as long as it takes for any actual food to leave our systems. But we, the collective we of oil-drinkers, drink our oil with food in our bellies and colons, still supplying nutrients and being processed by a system whose whole raison d'etre is to recognize and capitalize on the presence of that food. So why would that swig of oil not be treated as the anomoly, rather than the Happy Meal still hanging out downstairs while the hosts are trying to clean up the party?

My own answer, which is somewhere above in this thread, is that it IS the oil that's treated as the anomoly, and that it's the mechanisms not of famine but rather of poison that makes SLD work. But I'd be interested in others' thoughts on this.

Any ideas?

Best,
Josh
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 10:05:54 AM by Eman Resu »
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Eman Resu

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2008, 08:02:37 AM »

This is interesting. I've always found the most compelling explanation for morning sickness to be that it functions as kind of an allergy on the baby's behalf--to keep mom from ingesting anything that might be harmful for the developing fetus. When I went searching a reference for this, I found the following passage in a wikipedia article (boldface mine):

As for root causes, this issue is still somewhat controversial. A notable current scientific hypothesis is that morning sickness exists as a safeguard for the embryo's health. Biologists Gillian V. Pepper and S. Craig Roberts have done a study that indicates that the intake of alcohol, sugar, oils, and meat can trigger morning sickness. This then acts as a way of discouraging ingestion of less healthy foods.[2]

This is further confirmation for me that what's happening is not a response to presumed famine but rather perceived toxin. (Not to heartily agree with myself or anything!)



To me, strong appetite supression feels like mild morning sickness. It would be interesting to explore what the body is trying to do regarding food avoidance and nutrition during pregnancy that causes appetite supression and see if there is any link to appetite supression for the average person experiencing weight loss and gain.
I agree.  The AS seems very connected to hormones.
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rs-px

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 12:08:34 PM »

To me, strong appetite supression feels like mild morning sickness. It would be interesting to explore what the body is trying to do regarding food avoidance and nutrition during pregnancy that causes appetite supression and see if there is any link to appetite supression for the average person experiencing weight loss and gain.
I agree.  The AS seems very connected to hormones.

Elsewhere on the forums they're talking about whether marijuana affects the set point.

It's interesting to look at conditions that cause the set point to be lowered or raised, and see if that can help us understand how SLD works.

- Getting high is known to give people the munchies -- could be a rapid and temporary rising of the set point. Alcohol does pretty much the same thing. Heidi pointed out that marijuana also stops vomiting for people undergoing chemotherapy.

- Stress: People eat when they're stressed. Does stress raise the set point?

- Depression: People lose their appetite when depressed. This is one of the tick-boxes doctors use to diagnose depression. Does depression lower the set point?

- Viral illnesses, like a cold or flu: Do viruses lower the body's set point? I note that people who have viruses are emotionally low throughout.

- Fear, nerves or shock: Kills the appetite stone dead. People are described as "living on adrenaline"

- after sex, people feel hungry. Well, I do. :roll:

In looking for factors that unite all these, it does seem that most are emotional.

I wonder... Maybe the following is true:

SLD doesn't cause AS. AS is just a natural response to eating the flavorless calories -- just like AS follows any meal. The difference between SLD's unflavored calories and eating food normally is that eating normally has an sensory/emotional attachment because of the flavor. And that causes us to eat more. Obese people get the way they are because their emotional response to the food is in excess of others---food makes them high! Note that the emotional response doesn't necessarily equate to the immediate response to flavor. In fact, the two might be diametrically opposed (as a fat person I'm much less aware of taste than many thin friends, who always go on about how great something tastes). 

But, as always, all paths lead to Seth's original set point theory. We're just getting there by a different route.



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suddenly_sane

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 01:26:51 PM »

- Depression: People lose their appetite when depressed. This is one of the tick-boxes doctors use to diagnose depression. Does depression lower the set point?

Actually, depression can manifest as either an increase or a decrease in one's appetite.

I wonder if some of the other factors you mentioned are individual as well.

Part of what I like about Dr. Robert's methods is the focus on self-experimentation, different things work for different people, and I think this is especially true for something like controlling one's weight.

Oh, and had a thought about ditto food with domestic animals. Pets won't gain weight as long as they are not taking in more calories than they can use, even though they have the exact same food everyday.

So maybe nose-clipping, crazy spicing, etc works especially well when one is eating mroe calories than is actually needed.

Eman Resu: I have a hard time seeing the body recognizing sugar water as a toxin, but that yields similar effects as oil.
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Eman Resu

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Re: What's your personal favorite theory?
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2008, 09:31:10 AM »

Hi, SS--

Thanks for your good points below, and your response to my post. I should note that I'm not quite saying that sugar IS a poison. Rather that (I increasingly believe) the mechanism that leads to appetite supression on SLD is the one that the body uses to avoid ingesting more of some unknown substance in CASE it's poison. That's a different mechanism than the one in place for times of scarcity (set point).

SLD sees flavorless oil and sugar as equal: they both provide calories divorced from flavor. It's true that one tastes good and one is kind of vile (I'm not that bright: I take the vile one!). But if SLD's explanation is correct, then both are equally recognized by the body as something that is not quite food. SLD says, "uh-oh, famine time in the jungle, gotta shut down." Yours truly says, "uh-oh--something's wrong, and all my dumb predecessors on my cousin's side of the family who kept eating when things seemed wrong, died. I'm not touching that or anything else for awhile. Except maybe my dumb cousin, she's kind of cute."

But this is all just an explanation I'm forming on the fly, since I find it hard to believe that set point theory explains SLD. If I've eaten an hour ago, I truly don't believe that a swig of anything could override the knowledge my body infers from all the processing and digestion still going on--except something the body fears may harm it. Either way, whatever explains SLD, I think it's categorically NOT that it thinks food is scarce.

But then, I also thought the Sarah Silverman show on Comedy Central was funny, and that seems to have been cancelled, so it shows you what I know.

--Josh


- Depression: People lose their appetite when depressed. This is one of the tick-boxes doctors use to diagnose depression. Does depression lower the set point?

Actually, depression can manifest as either an increase or a decrease in one's appetite.

I wonder if some of the other factors you mentioned are individual as well.

Part of what I like about Dr. Robert's methods is the focus on self-experimentation, different things work for different people, and I think this is especially true for something like controlling one's weight.

Oh, and had a thought about ditto food with domestic animals. Pets won't gain weight as long as they are not taking in more calories than they can use, even though they have the exact same food everyday.

So maybe nose-clipping, crazy spicing, etc works especially well when one is eating mroe calories than is actually needed.

Eman Resu: I have a hard time seeing the body recognizing sugar water as a toxin, but that yields similar effects as oil.
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