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[Heidi 555]

I am thinking that maybe AS needs to be conditioned and that is why it takes a certain amount of time to build up for a lot of people.  Also, I'm thinking that appetite suppression might be related to appetite repulsion (AR).  That appetite repulsion is an excessive form of AS.  If you intentionally or inadvertently take AS too far, it will spill over into AR.  But perhaps it might be possible to use a small amount of AR to stimulate AS.  Also, I'm thinking that the oil tends to work well for a lot of people because it has some AR built into it.  Just the thought of drinking oil makes one a bit queasy and has a natural AS effect to it.

So maybe it would be helpful to reflect on what foods are already appetite suppressive or appetite repulsive for you, and use those foods to establish and strengthen AS.  Perhaps, adding a very small amount of nose clipped appetite repulsive food, could speed up the effects of AS. 

Also, it seems like it might be very important to use already established AS to condition new appetite suppression.  For example, this might be why it is good to gradually transition to a new oil by mixing it with the old kind of oil.  Or why it is good to keep that oil routine going and add a new AS routine at another time.

Good AS is established by regular and consistent reinforcement of bland, neutral to slightly queasy, flavorless calories.  The body is getting too much of something that isn't so good for it in terms of conditioning.  Eating a lot of oil may be very healthy for you, but in terms of a conditioned response it will be boring, neutral, to slightly repulsive.  Similarly, too much sugar can have a slightly sickening effect. 

Now, in terms of food cravings, there is a really pleasurable, comforting conditioned response.  One way to eliminate those cravings would be to form some repulsive associations with them.  Consistently combine a ditto food with a food that you really dislike and see what happens.  (try this nose clipped???)  Eat enough of the ditto food so that you feel really sick.  Once a strong AR is formed, it will be hard to enjoy that food again.  I imagine that the idea of turning a ditto food into an appetite repulsive food will be hard for most people.  A gradual extinguishing approach would probably be easier.  I will have to read up more on ways to extinguish a conditioned response.  Or if someone could refresh my memory -- it's been 25 years since I learned this in College Psych. class.  (So much of what I learned in academic education was useless and forgotten.  It's always nice when there's really good practical application in everyday life.  )

It's very interesting to see how long lasting AS and AR associations can be.  When I was in highschool, for awhile I ate a plain salad with cottage cheese on top to lose weight.  It got really hard to stomach that cottage cheese and salad.  Cottage cheese with a certain flavor and texture (small curd) still has a slightly queasy AS association for me from that time.  I still have some AR from foods I vomited as a kid.  For folks that are having a hard time establishing AS, nose clipping some of these foods with previously established associations and combining them with oil or other bland foods might be a key.  Most conditioned food associations happen without conscious awareness and memory.  Bringing awareness to this process by intentionally conditioning what you want, seems like a good and empowering thing.

For me there is a very fine line between AS and AR.  I'm thinking that exploring that fine line and attempting to stay just on the AS side of it, may help me to establish a regular and consistent AS.  My initial experience with oil left me with AR instead of AS, and that doesn't work.  I'm just thinking out loud here.  In the upcoming days I'm going to try applying some of these ideas that I've mentioned.  I appreciate other's comments and insight concerning these ideas.  And thank you again Seth, for laying down the melody foundation that we are improvising off of.

[Pinkmug]

  One way to eliminate those cravings would be to form some repulsive associations with them.

Not diet related, but I heard of a clinic that promotes weight loss that way, by hypnosis. They hypnotize the patient, and lead them to believe that in their early youth they had an episode of eating XXX (binge food) that went bad in their stomach and produced great discomfort and pain, vomiting, diarrhea etc... This creates an artificial memory in the patient, which leads to repulsion to that specific food, or foods. I just can't find anything about it in the internet. 

Eliminating cravings by a negative association with that particular food sounds good, but what if you then develop cravings for other foods? You have to go back to square one?  :?

[Heidi 555]

Pinkmug, That is a really interesting anecdote.  I wonder if it worked??? 



In retrospect I think I made my initial post way too complicated.  Too many SLD thoughts spinning around in my head.  :shock: :?

The two (potentially new and helpful) ideas I have are:
1.  Maybe AS is related to and a mild form of AR (appetite repulsion)
2.  Maybe AS needs to be conditioned.

So far I've been nose clipping foods that I have very pleasant associations with -- some ditto foods and some not.  What I'm going to try now is to nose clip foods that have neutral to slightly repulsive associations for me.  Something that I would definitely not want to eat without noseclips, but would push myself to eat because it's good for me.  Hopefully, the noseclips will make it seem tolerable and neutral.  Previously, I'd been making my yogurt and flax combos delicious.  Something that would taste good to me if not nose clipped.  Let's see how it goes.

[Pinkmug]

Ah-ha! I found something related. Now I'm not sure if I had read about a clinic doing it, or just a study on it. Read this article:

Could False Memories Be An Efficient Diet Helper?

http://www.tourismusundgesund.com/9054.php

But this article mentions suggestion and I think I had read about hypnotherapy. I must look further.

I'll cooperate in your experiment, I'll try foods I don't like with NC on. Funny, this a.m. i added an ampoule of disgusting memory booster and a t of disgusting aloe vera syrup to my NC smoothie, and got no taste at all from them!

[Heidi 555]

I'll cooperate in your experiment, I'll try foods I don't like with NC on.

Oh goody!    It's much more fun if somebody is trying something with you!

The article was interesting.
However, most of the subjects didn't fall for the fake memories. 
I was relieved to hear that.
For example, it was proven on a previous study that although suggestioned against potato chips consumption, people could not be convinced to avoid this food.
Ah-ha! It didn't work for strong ditto foods.

Oh, I'm a bad lab rat! I can't remember what I ate yesterday.... I should write everything down...

Anyway, its' pretty apparent my AS is not very strong. 
(neither is my memory....)

I can relate!

[Pinkmug]

Heidi, I'm curious to know why you were relieved to hear that most subjects didn't fall for the fake memories!
Do you think it collides with free will or something?
As for me, this conditioning would be a valuable tool in the battle against obesity, if it were successful. *
Nonetheless, it worked well for some foods (non-ditto - strawberry ice cream)  and worse for dittos (chocolate chip cookies). The whole article by Elizabeth Loftus is very interesting:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/102/39/13724?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=elizabeth+loftus&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

Anyway, the suggestioning method was kind of bland, I'm sure hypnosis would work better in that respect.

I'll let you know about my experiments - I must remember to take notes!! 

* It WAS successful: "We began this work with two simple questions. Can we lead people to believe that, as children, they had a negative experience with a fattening food? Does this false belief lead people to avoid eating the fattening food as adults? Our results show clearly that the answer to both questions is "yes."

[Heidi 555]

Heidi, I'm curious to know why you were relieved to hear that most subjects didn't fall for the fake memories!
Do you think it collides with free will or something?

In this experiment they were using the fake memories to help the person.  I was concerned about those who would use fake memories for mind control or other less than noble causes.  I’m educated enough to be paranoid.  I wasn’t able to get the whole article from the link you posted, but I’m on an old, slow computer.

I was glad that I couldn’t taste my nonfat plain yogurt, flax, and wheatgerm concoction.  I’m sure it tasted better nose clipped!  Sour but satisfying.  I also ate some plain sardines nose clipped and thought they tasted better without all that fishiness.  I’m trying to think of other foods that are healthy that I don’t like the taste of. 

So far today had steadier AS but nothing remarkable.  I think it’s too soon to say anything anyhow.  Even with mild AS, I’m still really happy with SLD. 

[Heidi 555]

Tried a new experiment this morning.  I don't like cooked carrots -- it comes from some childhood conditioning.  My brother has the same quirk.  Love them raw, but not cooked.  So I just boiled some up and ate a few nose clipped.  The smell of them cooking had an AS effect!  Eating them nose clipped wasn't bad.  Perhaps the equivalent of taking oil.  I'm trying to determine how much appetite repulsion plays a part in appetite suppression.  I felt somewhat satisfied after I ate them.  But one small helping isn't enough to draw any conclusions.

Pinkmug, looking forward to hearing how this experiment is going for you.  Also hoping some others join us. 

[Heidi 555]

Wow.  I finally had some really good AS.  Better than I got with oil.  I didn’t eat lunch.  And I’m still not hungry yet.  Maybe it’s just beginner’s luck or some kind of fluke.

Awhile after I ate the very small amount of carrots, I had a nonfat yogurt and whole wheat gruel mix with some ground flax (but no oil).  The combo was a little bit gaggy for me and I was glad to have those nose clips.  Towards the end I added a bit of honey.  I thought perhaps I was erring too much on the repulsive side.  The honey made it easier to get down. 

Normally, this would have counted as a light breakfast and I would have been starving for lunch.  Around lunch time, I tried making a persimmon pudding without following a recipe.  I ended up with a weird concoction that would have disappointed me had I not been on this diet.  I figured it was weird enough that my body might not register it as calories.  So I had many tastes of this weird persimmon concoction through various stages, but not enough of it to count as lunch – a snack at most.  I normally eat a lot for lunch. 

A friend of mine use to feed her baby these mixtures of ground up cooked whole grains, steamed veggies, and yogurt.  As long as she mixed in enough applesauce to sweeten it, he would eat it.  She got her baby to eat a lot of healthy veggies this way.  I’m thinking this kind of mix minus the applesauce might be a good foundation recipe.  It’s slightly repulsive to me, but healthy and easily digestible.  It also reminds me of a thread on junk smoothies posted by Nile: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5176  But this seems like a simpler version of what he was/is doing.

[Heidi 555]

It finally feels as though SLD is working for me.  I woke up this morning to good AS, and feeling a pound skinnier.  I know I need to give it more time, but so far this experiment is going better than I anticipated.  I hope some others try it and post their feedback, (though I also realize that it’s pretty similar to the nose clipped protein or cottage cheese and oil that others are already doing.) 

Here’s the criteria that I’m currently experimenting with:

1.  The food mix is bland.
2.  The food mix is unquestionably healthy and easy to digest.
3.  The food mix is neutral to slightly repulsive.
4.  I do not know what it tastes like (nor do I want to know),
     or I know what it tastes like and I don’t like it.
5. The food mix is not too high or low in calories
    (the equivalent of a snack or very light meal).
6. The food mix is simple and easy to take as many times a day as needed.

Here’s the more elaborate explanation for the above:

1.  When I nose clipped foods that I like and typically eat, I didn’t get really good AS.  I had to nose clip a lot of food to get noticeable but mild AS.  Eating nose clipped ditto foods, created food cravings and nose clipped binges.  It also created a roller coaster of unpredictable AS.  Bland foods have less taste and are essentially flavorless when nose clipped.  Bland foods do not stimulate the appetite.  Bland foods seem steady, consistent, and dependable relative to ditto foods or recognizable foods that give pleasure.

2.  When I nose clipped oil and sugar and felt sick on it, I really worried that it might not be good for me.  I worried that the oil was stressing my liver and that the sugar might stress my pancreas.  I had a hard time digesting oil by itself.  With my current mix, I unquestionably know it’s good for me, even though it’s not something I prefer to eat.  (There is nothing about the food mix that my mind could worry about.)  I feel good after eating it.  The mix is easy on my digestive system and doesn’t constipate.  I don’t feel nauseous from it.  Just like with good healthy exercise, I feel good about myself after doing it.

3.  I’m thinking that slight repulsion might be an important attribute of AS.  Too much enjoyment or pleasure = appetite stimulation and food cravings.  Too much repulsion and you feel sick, awful, and can’t get yourself to eat the food.  I’m aiming for something in the middle: something neutral and just slightly repulsive.  I modify the mix to keep it in this zone.  For example, I’ll add a bit of raw honey if I psychologically feel like I can’t stomach the mix the way it is.  So far for me, if something is slightly repulsive, I get immediate AS from it.  I don’t have to wait days for AS to kick in.

4.  Recognizing the food (even though it was nose clipped) linked it to past pleasures which = food cravings.  Not knowing what it tastes like, keeps it bland, neutral and more tasteless.  Foods that you don’t like have some natural appetite suppression built into them.  You can use this to your advantage, if you feel so inclined.

5.  Hopefully, modifying the calories will make the diet more efficient.  Ideally, one finds a relatively small amount of calories that gives good and noticeable AS.  Talking rat gave me this idea when she said, “80 nonfat milk calories made me fuller than 200 yogurt calories”.  Using nonfat dairy appears so far to give greater AS with fewer calories.  Also, nonfat dairy doesn’t taste as good, so one is less likely to crave it.

6.  The food mix is easy to make, and something that I don’t mind taking 2 or 3 times a day as needed.  Maybe once a day would be enough for some people.

Each person can develop food mixtures that work for them.  This approach seems to have a lot of possibilities.  I’m using a mix of nonfat yogurt, cooked whole grains or wheat germ, steamed vegetables, flax seed meal or small amounts of oil.  I’m thinking about buying some jars of baby food because it would be convenient and easy to mix in.  I might try some other nonfat dairy.  I need to go shopping and find some more bland healthy foods to add to this experiment. 

I love smoothies so I’m keeping this more of a mush.  A mush is less appetizing/slightly repulsive for me, which is good.  Mixing the foods together is less appetizing/slightly repulsive, too.

[Seth Roberts]

That's very interesting, Heidi. Speaking of the connection between AS and repulsion (being repulsed by the thought of eating), Cabanac's experiment showed that as a meal progresses, the pleasure from each bite goes down. When you are hungry, in other words, food tastes better than when you are not hungry. As you eat you become less hungry. The pleasure from each bite doesn't just go to zero, it eventually crosses the line into repulsion. So there is a fine line between appetite suppression (no hunger = no pleasure from food) and food repulsion (eating is unpleasant).

[Pinkmug]

Hey Heidi! Lousy lab rat reporting. I did go on with a morning NC CC smoothie, and additionally Saturday afternoon I prepared a Disgusting Mush with yogurt and Poison-tasting Memory Ampoules. Eaten with noseclip on, it didn't taste bad. This was well after lunch, and I thought I was full, but half an hour later I had a hunger pang and went for cake slices. I can't remember what I had for dinner -I think I nibbled around, and no more NC foods.
Sunday morning I had my NC CC smoothie, and went with my family to a get-together where we play football (soccer) where I ran alot, and then to an out-of-town restaurant for a convivial lunch. This took long to be served, around 3 p.m. so I was quite hungry and ate too much including french fries,  :shock:
In the evening, toast and a cup of tea.
Now the worse part: Monday morning (yesterday) I headed to the fridge to prepare my NC CC smoothie, but, I had an UGH attack just by looking at the ingredients... not sheer UGH, it was a mix of UGH and BÊÊÊRRKH, so I gave up. Ended up eating a very small piece of cake, and lo and behold I had reasonable AS the rest of the day. I did think of getting a NC meal later, but everytime I was hungry, I said to myself: not this meal NC, the next. Tne next, the next and ended up not NC'ing. This morning, same thing, had a bowl of milk and cereal, not NC, good AS, have been drinking CFF's all day at work. I'm at a loss as to what I'll be doing next. One thing is sure: the best AS day ever was when I noseclipped ALL meals. Another is, NCP doesn't give me the remarkable AS it gives others... 

[Heidi 555]

That's very interesting, Heidi. Speaking of the connection between AS and repulsion (being repulsed by the thought of eating), Cabanac's experiment showed that as a meal progresses, the pleasure from each bite goes down. When you are hungry, in other words, food tastes better than when you are not hungry. As you eat you become less hungry. The pleasure from each bite doesn't just go to zero, it eventually crosses the line into repulsion. So there is a fine line between appetite suppression (no hunger = no pleasure from food) and food repulsion (eating is unpleasant).

Seth, thanks for your response.  I really notice this effect when eating my slightly repulsive healthy mush.  I wait until I’m good and hungry before eating it.  I actually look forward to it and it seems to taste delicious despite the nose clips.  After I’ve eaten a bit it turns neutral, and then it gets to the point where it’s slightly repulsive and I can’t stomach it anymore.  It’s impossible to overeat it.  Like Cabanac’s bland food experiment that you wrote about in your book, I think a person could lose a lot of weight by just eating nose clipped mush without ever being hungry.  If I had a lot of weight to lose, or if I end up on a plateau, I would maybe try it. 

When taking the oil I had a similar progression, but the progression unfolded over days.  To begin with it seemed good, then neutral, and then slightly repulsive, and then absolutely nauseating.  Once something crosses over into full repulsion, it’s extremely difficult to consume it again. 

So far the results of eating slightly repulsive nose clipped food caught me by surprise.  I didn’t expect it to work as well as it has.   

[Heidi 555]

Pinkmug, nose clipping slightly repulsive mush seems to work remarkably better for me than just nose clipping a meal.  I only get mild or inconsistent AS when nose clipping regular food.  I’ve been finding it works best to have my first meal of the day be nose clipped mush.  Starts the day rolling with really good AS.

One thing is sure: the best AS day ever was when I noseclipped ALL meals.
I had one day where I had such good AS from my mush that I ate no snacks or lunch.  Then nothing appealed to me for dinner, but I was hungry, so I nose clipped a small amount for that meal too.  My AS was so strong it scared me.  Seems as though I associate super strong AS with being really sick or dying.  I could tell my body was hungry underneath, but I couldn’t get myself to eat anything because the AS was sooo strong on top of it.  I also had a hard time sleeping that night.  I was relieved when my appetite eventually returned the next day.  I think it will be easier and more familiar if/when it happens again. 

but, I had an UGH attack just by looking at the ingredients... not sheer UGH, it was a mix of UGH and BÊÊÊRRKH, so I gave up
Yeah, sometimes it’s a fine line between slight UGH and still edible, versus too much UGH and impossible to stomach.  When I’m really hungry, any kind of repulsive mush seems really good.  I’m really glad that you’re giving this a try, though. 

My weight loss seems to be slow and steady.  No scale, but I’m fitting into my smallest sized clothes that I haven’t worn for a year or two.  My pants span about 3 sizes.  Last year I had the smallest ones packed away in boxes.  Now it’s the opposite.  I also have about 4 pairs of really tight pants that I think of as my incentive pants.  A few of them, I’ve had for years.  They still have the tags on them and I’ve never worn them.  Well, I just tried them on yesterday and they fit, but are still a bit too tight for me to comfortably wear.  Hopefully, I’ll get to wear them soon!  It’s a really great reward, when pants that you’re saving that you think you’ll never get into, finally fit.

[Pinkmug]

Yesterday, normal food day till arriving home at 19:30. I noseclipped and started cooking dinner for the fam (squid rice) - I didn' t want unsolicited scents!  Meanwhile, ate one cup of boiled buckwheat seasoned with a T oil. Not unpleasant with NC. Then, a small cottage cheese. That was it. Felt good till bedtime! A lb down this morning. If I could do this everyday!!! 

I sampled the squids and the rice for saltiness, with NC on. All in all 3 meals yesterday: cereal breakfast (chocolate muesli with milk) - pot-au-feu at lunch, white wine and chocolate mousse (only ate half of the main plate) - slightly disgusting buckwheat and CC for NC'd dinner (with oil, it gets less disgusting).

It still took me some willpower to not attack the cookie jar even noseclipped!  :shock: