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[ZM]

Djdawg writes,

looks like another "Evil America" post.  We're bad, we suck, we're greedy, we're stupid, blah, blah,blah. 

We're neither angels nor devils. We're human, same as any other people in the world. Some of us are good, some bad, some indifferent. No blah blah blah about it.

But back to the point - you talked about the economy being better than in years. I put up news I read this week that says different. There are rosey stats too - Bush talked up a lot of them yesterday in the face of the free falling Dow. Google should be able to find his speech in a split infinitive. If you're "With Stupid", go get it, paste it in, and let's look at what's what. If you can't be bothered well ... good luck to you and thanks for playing.

I'm sure the U.S.A. gives back to the world more then any other country.

I'm very grateful for what the USA has given Australia. If it weren't for the US pacific fleet we'd be talking either Japanese or Indonesian, depending on timeframe. Residents of many other countries have less reason to be grateful to US realpolitik ...

But we're talking economics here. The US has been a net grain exporter for a very long time - which is a good thing. And we used to make cars, software, planes, all kinds of manufactured goods. That was good too, though we don't do it any more.

We used to be a pretty fair tourist destination ... but we're letting that slip pretty badly. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/25/nonny-mouse-goes-down-under/ has a recent story on this.

I'm not saying we don't have problems and we're certainly not perfect.  And you're taking my quote out of context.  I was replying about the economy and how it is doing better then it has in years and that is certainly true. 

I was talking about the economy! If you're not aware of the basics, go look at the pretty graphs on http://mwhodges.home.att.net/summary.htm - if you can read that page and come away feeling things are booming ... you're doing better than I am.

I'm not the only one - just yesterday Walmart slashed their prices across the board. They don't do that out of altruism. They do it because they don't think their customers can afford things any more. With the debt crunch plus falling dollars (hence more expensive imported manufactured goods) plus the oil price going ballistic the squeeze on the middle class is like a vice. Walmart ain't stupid.

Now you're lumping it with the administration as a whole and that's not what I was talking about......jealousy is very ugly.....

Um, you lost me on that last bend. Who am I jealous of? I don't lump all this guff at this administration's door. I said the problem is systemic - it's been going on at least since the Carter administration. The current administration is far from blameless, but then it's not their fault they're presiding over peak oil, peak debt, and peak carbon-pollution all at once. I'm no fan of theirs - they're deep dyed crooks so far as I can see - but I don't see how a Gore administration would have avoided this stuff either. We've been neglecting business for a long time now ...

K-Mac writes,

Why is it, Peter, that you believe I am so much better and capable than all of the wretched, neglected, and abused poor in this country?  Do you think I come from money?  Do you think I have a higher education?  Do you think I was brought up in private schools rather than the trash that passes for American public education?  I made myself what I am today from NOTHING.

Good for you! Seriously, I admire your spirit and intelligence. I'm lucky enough to be married to a woman who did the same. As to why it is - guts and brains I'd bet, most likely in equal proportions.

And a parcel of good luck too, which I guess is my point. For every K-Mac there's dozens of winoes, junkies and jailbirds. Maybe they lack brains or guts. But a lot of them simply got such a bad deal they never had a chance. You compare the US with any other industrialized country and you see differences - the other countries work a lot harder to give people a second chance. We don't. And that's damn foolish of us - because people are fragile and valuable things, and throwing a big lot of them out just because they've got life lessons to learn is a big fat expensive waste of money for America as a whole.

And I don't think they're dumb and helpless like you do.  I volunteered at the Astrodome all Labor Day weekend after Hurricane Katrina.  I saw with my own eyes, tens of thousands of able-bodied people who failed to evacuate because they were waiting on their welfare check to come in.  How pitiful!  I saw, and smelled, first hand the stench of altruism and what it leads to. You can take that road my friend, but I will pick up a gun and fight like hell before I travel down it with you.

I wasn't there so can't comment. But I'm not suggesting altruism. Giving people money doesn't help 'em make money. I am suggesting that instead of spending our money to incarcerate people we strike every last victimless crime off our books, decriminalize and tax cannabis, wind our draconian legal system back to about 1950, free the 3/4 of a million druggies from our rape-factory jails, and take all the money we save and spend it on teachers, textbooks, schools, roads, port security, hospitals, energy research, and basically pulling our head out.

And while we're at it ban lobbyism, bust the media monopoly, stop playing international policeman, and blah, blah, big fat bleeding heart liberal blah. I don't see any altruism in any of the above - and if you do I'd like to understand how.

As for guns - I have had the pleasure of living for years in countries with and without laws regulating 'em. I observe people are more friendly and polite in countries with laws regulating 'em. I know the traditional American argument - that they're essential to prevent tyranny. But we've had two election stolen now by a pack of bald-faced fascists and I don't see anyone's guns doing any good against 'em. So I'd rather have the friendliness and politeness. That's just my personal preference though - and my choice as an Australian resident. Good luck to you if your preference is otherwise.

[shinju_chan]

My advice Merel, don't worry about this loser; he's not worth responding to.

[ZM]

You mean "Djdawg"? Well I can't say I care for the way he's expressed himself on other threads ... but it doesn't appear he's up for discussing the deep aspects of soccer ...

K-Mac, OTOH, seems an interesting fellow and I expect he has more to say. Of course I doubt he's going to start nodding agreeably, but none of us here are so delicate we can't enjoy different perspectives on things from time to time.

My thesis, of course, is that it is the games we learn as children that go on to inform our cultures. Baseball is a game of paranoia - stealing bases, secret signals, blame and shame, stars and sledging, and so on. Soccer is a game of collaboration in which scoring is less important than group dynamics. The social systems of republic and commonwealth follow in step.

I was rather hoping to make such a point in conversational context but since you've descended to our level, Shinju, I wonder if you may could use yet another cultural context to shed some more light. The only Japanese games I understand are Go and Tea; these aren't really kid's games. I know the Japanese have taken to both soccer and baseball ... but perhaps they begin with something else?

[Steve]

K-Mac, OTOH, seems an interesting fellow and I expect he has more to say. Of course I doubt he's going to start nodding agreeably, but none of us here are so delicate we can't enjoy different perspectives on things from time to time.

K-Mac is definately not a "he".  Why'd you assume that?  Check out her profile.

My thesis, of course, is that it is the games we learn as children that go on to inform our cultures. Baseball is a game of paranoia - stealing bases, secret signals, blame and shame, stars and sledging, and so on. Soccer is a game of collaboration in which scoring is less important than group dynamics. The social systems of republic and commonwealth follow in step.

Scoring is the most important.  Scoring/winning is the ultimate goal in the entire game.  Working selfishly and voluntarily together towards a goal is great, but that certainly is not exemplary of those said social systems. 

[anacara]

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose . . . the fact that they were the people who created the phrase "to make money." No other language or nation had ever used these words before. . . . Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created."

All Ayn Rand quotes.  If you don't know who she is, where she came from, or what she stands for, I highly recommend you educate yourself.

From Mark Hyman, author of Ultrametabolism
When a hospital diabetes prevention program is so successful in helping patients improve their health and reduce amputations and complications of diabetes that it has to be shut down because the hospital LOSES money by charging only $60 for a nutrition consult instead of getting $6,000 for a toe amputation -- then we know something is seriously wrong with our incentives.

but hey K-Mac - they make money!!

Oh, and I'm quite sure someone as well-read as Peter Merel knows quite well who Ayn Rand was, where she was from and what she stood for.  Personally I have no time for the utter selfishness of her ideology. 

[K-Mac]

Name calling and insults.  That's about what I expected from the two of you that responded that way.  At least Peter has the guts to try and engage me in an intelligent conversation.  If you don't have anything constructive to add, why post?  Pointless insults make you sound ignorant.

[anacara]

Name calling and insults.  That's about what I expected from the two of you that responded that way.  At least Peter has the guts to try and engage me in an intelligent conversation.  If you don't have anything constructive to add, why post?  Pointless insults make you sound ignorant.

I would be grateful if you could identify the "name calling and insults".  I am not aware of any on my part - just a hint of sarcasm, used to make the point that there is more to life and humanity than "making money".

[K-Mac]

Name calling and insults.  That's about what I expected from the two of you that responded that way.  At least Peter has the guts to try and engage me in an intelligent conversation.  If you don't have anything constructive to add, why post?  Pointless insults make you sound ignorant.

I would be grateful if you could identify the "name calling and insults".  I am not aware of any on my part - just a hint of sarcasm, used to make the point that there is more to life and humanity than "making money".

You're right, anacara, I do owe you an apology.  I'm sorry.  You did not insult me, you simply put words in my mouth.  I guess I'm so used to the America bashing around here, I'm starting to get a bit paranoid.  Who could blame me?

There are more important things in life than making money, although that is a very important one.  Without governments stealing money from taxpayers like me, who would pay for the poor and down trodden, much less the hospital bills, of those that you speak of?

Basically, I believe in personal freedoms and  laissez-faire capitalism.  If those two things were allowed to thrive without the intervention of government, I think you would soon see that all the "problems" of the middle and lower classes, and health care, would soon vanish.  And talk about a peaceful society?  There would be nothing more peaceful than everyone taking care of themselves...and having the ability to do so.  We wouldn't be fighting this damn war on terror if it weren't for radical Muslims trying to impose their way of life on everyone else.  They are living for Allah instead of themselves.  That is what Ayn Rand meant by being selfish.  You should live for your own happiness and prosperity.  Why not?  Why do you believe in sacrificing yourself for another man that has just as much capability as you do?  What makes any other man on this planet more important than you?  I consider all of you my equal.  The way that you all talk, you think I'm some high and mighty being that has the capability to take care of the rest of the world???  Crazy!

And it sounds like you have been misled with regards to Ayn Rand.  She is a woman who escaped communist Russia and knows much about self-sacrifice and the horrors it has and will cause.  You ought to read up a little more about her and her definition of selfishness.  She uses very literall meanings of words, not the negative connotations that they usually have.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_ethics   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29

If you've actually read Atlas Shrugged and walked away thinking that collectivism and/or statism is the way to go, then I don't think you comprehended the book or understood what the author, personally, went through before she came to America.

I lose 35% of my paycheck to taxes, so I need to run and get back to earning "the peoples money."  Heaven forbid I should make any for myself!  I am the one doing the work and the commuting after all.  How selfish of me!

[ZM]

I guess I'm so used to the America bashing around here, I'm starting to get a bit paranoid.  Who could blame me?

I've seen very little America "bashing" here but perhaps I'm blind to it. Nevertheless let's forget blame and have a productive conversation about these issues.

You should live for your own happiness and prosperity.  Why not?

Well, speaking in a self-oriented mode, because the promotion of compassion, understanding, and community afford you, personally, greater security and opportunities for happiness.

Speaking in a vedantic mode, because individuality, mortality and profit are all illusions; we are waves on the river of mind.

Speaking in an objectivist mode, because the commons is immediately, personally valuable, but inherently difficult to monetize or otherwise maintain by selfish action. One of my business ventures at present involves a technology to monetize the commons. I think I have the problem cracked by monkeying with a new social basis for e-currency ... but only time will tell if that can work. Until there is a viable technological fix in this last mode, government by representation seems the least of many evils available to maintain the commons.

Speaking from personal experience of the workings of large corporations in many industries, because laissez-faire capitalism is swiftly overtaken by monopoly, and monopoly is nothing but a shell for feudalism. When the corporation becomes the dominant social context, as it is in America today, "laissez-faire" becomes a mask for authoritarianism.

Take your pick.

The way that you all talk, you think I'm some high and mighty being that has the capability to take care of the rest of the world???  Crazy!

We are sock-puppets for the gods. So if you act in a godly way, godly things happen. Crazy but true. Rand is a fine example of this; denouncing unselfish work she wrote books for the benefit of others. Crazy? Sure. But beautiful!

I read Atlas Shrugged as a teen and found it very inspiring. And then later I re-read it and felt it represented a forced choice. Collectivism/statism vs objectivism is not the only game in town. There are others that I find more pleasant, so seldom fuss with this one any more.

But I have a thought experiment for you. FDR's "New Deal" and "Four Freedoms" framed America's golden age. Before them capitalism had foundered on the rocks of laissez-faire. But FDR is plainly anathema to Rand.

The experiment is to describe an objectivist way out of the Great Depression. Feel free to posit any additional social forces you like, but no new technology. Oh, and bonus points if the result maintains the US constitution intact.

And very sorry for mistaking your gender earlier. No offense intended.

[K-Mac]

I guess I'm so used to the America bashing around here, I'm starting to get a bit paranoid.  Who could blame me?

I've seen very little America "bashing" here but perhaps I'm blind to it. Nevertheless let's forget blame and have a productive conversation about these issues.

Maybe you're not as sensitive to the bashing, and some of it is very subtle, but if you'll notice, anytime I jump to the defense of my country, my culture or capitalism on this forum, it's as a result of someone else taking a cheap shot.  I have not initiated any of it.

As far as all that other stuff, as you can imagine, I disagree with much of what you said, but as I stated earlier, we will have to agree to disagree.  Time has shown what works and what doesn't, and so will the future.  You can either read history and learn from it, or keep giving up your personal and economic freedoms to the government and fail miserably like the USSR.  It's just nearly incomprehensible to me how anyone can think that government can do everything better than the individual.  Everything the government touches turns to crap...education, health care, social security, etc., etc.  The list goes on and on.  I believe in man.  We are smart enough, resourceful enough and charitable enough to do the right thing without politicians forcing us to do it.  Period.

And I'm not going to get into an Objectivist debate with you here.  If you wish to challenge the rationality of the movement, I suggest you join one of the Objectivist forums and visit the debate section.  I am very much a student of Objectivism and do not have all my ducks in a row to be able to debate you on all the issues, yet.  But there are plenty of other knowledgeable Objectivists on those forums that will be happy to show you the irrationality of your thinking.