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Author Topic: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment  (Read 83114 times)

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Pinkmug

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2009, 01:50:45 am »

I think my smallish post went unnoticed amidst the big posts... but I'm still curious: Todd, if maintaining a homeostatic weight depends on insulin, what do you think about the Glycemic Index Diet? Is it helpful for weight control?
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Oslo

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2009, 02:17:34 am »

Hey pinkmug, I know I'm not Todd, but I'm awake : )
Todd's proposal about how SLD works and the glycemic index seem totally in line - straight fat is as low as you can go on the index.  The now obvious but key thing to me is connecting the dots between them.  (MUFA diet also corresponds, the high MUFA foods are all low GI.)   Eating low GI meals lowers insulin production and SLD is insulin boot camp?   
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Oslo

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2009, 04:28:18 am »

Maybe why SLD doesn't work for everyone?  A study on low GI diets being very successful ONLY for people with high insulin concentration. 
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-05/jaaj-lld051007.php

Does your insulin concentration correspond in any way with whether or not you have a stronger hunger response to insulin spikes and drops?

Does insulin response correspond in any way with body weight? 
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Polaroid Doll

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2009, 05:26:09 am »


I am proposing that the basal insulin level is the key control point of the dynamic system that is our body.  There are other contol points of course, but insulin is the most important and has been very well studied.   If we can reduce insulin level by making good choices over time, we can shift our weights to a new "settling point".   There are actually many ways to lower the basal insulin level, but they take time. We should focus not on quick weight loss that doesn't really change the equilibrium.  That would be like dumping a little water in the lake or buidling a fire to make our house permanently warmer.   Shifting the balance of fats, oils and proteins, reducing our appetite (via the SLD diet or just avoiding very flavorful foods, aromas and other appetite stimulants).  Exercising (not to lose weight but rather to overcome insulin resistance) and even reducing stress via mediation or lifestyle changes (see the Gabriel method for a man who lost 220 pounds by reducing stress).   There is a wide variety of ways to reduce the basal insulin level and the insulin reponse.  If you reduce your basal insulin and keep it low consistently, your body will lose fat and you'll lose weight.  Just like if you widen the river coming out of a lake, the water level will fall.   In both cases, there is no setpoint, just a resulting "settling point".   And what is neat about this, I believe, is that it is sustainable.  Get your insulin down and you'll not only lose weight, you'll have more energy to exercise, your cravings will disappear, you will naturally make good lifestyle choices that help make this a permanent change, with no gimmicks.  In cases of insulin resistance (which many diabetics, pre-diabetics and probably many of the rest of us have), it may also be necessary to use diet and exercise to increase insulin sensitivity, otherwise low insulin levels may induce cravings.

Basically the focus should be on "building a better machine" - making your body more efficient -- not short term weight loss. By calming the insulin response through careful eating to keep insulin with narrow bounds, stress management and exercise (which does change the insulin sensitivity of our body tissues), we become satisfied with smaller meals and are able to access our fat stores easily.   With a broken insulin response, we will tend to "overshoot" and shunt excess food into deep storage in our adipose tissues, and make it hard to get the fat back out.


Those are two very important statements that should be included in any discussion of methods for losing weight. Moderate changes are easiest to maintain, and are less likely to encourage the body to respond in a manner that would have a detrimental effect on our efforts.
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m.c.

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2009, 06:10:28 am »

Todd your theory makes tremendous sense to me. It also seems consistent with the theory I am exploring about exercising every day for 30 minutes. Its all about as you say building a better machine and taking the time to to change the body's equilibruim.

Thanks for all
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Kirk

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2009, 06:16:39 am »

Taubes says that exercise makes us hungry, not lose weight.  On the other hand, there is that American reality TV show which has a bunch of obese contestants show up at the beginning of the season, and several months later they've lost incredible amounts of weight.  Yes, they changed their diet during their time.  But they've also been exercising like football players at training camp, because the doctor who consulted to the show had previously observed that professional football players cannot retain or gain weight at training camp, no matter what they eat.  And there is another idea, discussed on several threads of this forum, based upon the book Survival of the Thinnest, which proposes that 30 minutes a day of intense aerobic exercise will cause the body to shed fat.  Your thoughts in the context of the insulin hypotheses?
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m.c.

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2009, 06:25:46 am »

Hi Kirk,

You know I was worried about the increased hunger as I started doing this daily exercise thing 11 days ago but I am not starving. This is extremely interesting to me because when I had been exercising 3-5 times a week for an 45 minutes to an hour I definately was hungrier. Starving actually. I think Hariton addresses this phenomena in his book.

As to the fat? I think I'm shedding some but its too soon to tell.

I know this does not answer your question but I wanted to pipe in. :)
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Pinkmug

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2009, 07:24:17 am »

Maybe why SLD doesn't work for everyone?  A study on low GI diets being very successful ONLY for people with high insulin concentration. 
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-05/jaaj-lld051007.php

Does your insulin concentration correspond in any way with whether or not you have a stronger hunger response to insulin spikes and drops?

Does insulin response correspond in any way with body weight? 

Oslo thanks for your feedback  :D

Reg. your post quoted above, I suddenly remember having read something from a doctor saying that the GI diet wasn't for everyone.
Trying to find that I came accross this bit:

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/05/the_confirmator.html

Scroll down to Tim Lundeen's comment!!

Also, Seth and Stephen also comment the article, below Tim.

I'm rushing now but I have to see your link too Oslo.


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tek_vixen

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2009, 08:07:11 am »

This is certainly consistent with my first attempt at SLD.  I cruised to a 44 pound loss in three months and kept it off for several more.  As soon as a high stress period kicked in, I went straight for the sugar, and unleashed the uncontrollable hunger monster.  And that was all she wrote!  I guess I just have to recognize that there will always be periods of stress and I must come up with a better strategy to deal with them.  I'm thinking maybe an SLD boot camp after a sugar bender.  Noseclipping ..... everything.  For a couple of days at least.  And maybe even noseclipping the binge when it happens.  I've not done that previously even though I've thought of it because my binges usually start with eating something that's OK and then it snowballs out of control.  But I don't noseclip because I can't keep the flavorless window intact.  But maybe that doesn't matter.  I'll have to try it.

I wish we could easily test insulin levels to see the effect of things we try.  But I am pretty certain that I have some level of insulin resistance based on my past history.  And my brother is working with someone on treating his insulin resistance.  So it probably runs in the family.  My mom has had success on the Carbohydrate Addicts Diet, which would tend to keep insulin levels lower.  I always felt like crap when I tried it.  I'll have to think about it in terms of Todd's theory and try to figure out why.

I'm off to try and figure out ways I can dampen the level of insulin in my system.  I am encouraged by mc's note that the 30 minutes a day of exercise is not making her more hungry whereas 2-3 times per week was.  Now I just need to find an exercise that gets me in the target zone without killing my knees and hips .....

T-Vix
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Polaroid Doll

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2009, 08:47:44 am »

Taubes says that exercise makes us hungry, not lose weight.  On the other hand, there is that American reality TV show which has a bunch of obese contestants show up at the beginning of the season, and several months later they've lost incredible amounts of weight.  Yes, they changed their diet during their time.  But they've also been exercising like football players at training camp, because the doctor who consulted to the show had previously observed that professional football players cannot retain or gain weight at training camp, no matter what they eat.  And there is another idea, discussed on several threads of this forum, based upon the book Survival of the Thinnest, which proposes that 30 minutes a day of intense aerobic exercise will cause the body to shed fat.  Your thoughts in the context of the insulin hypotheses?

I think it's important to remember that there truly are no messiahs. Even those people who supply much useful insight can, at times, be incorrect on other subjects. Indeed, what I have read about Taubes would lead me to believe he is quite intelligent. but that alone does not guarantee that all of his thoughts will be correct one. As an example, look at Linus Pauling. He was a brilliant physisist and theorist, but was quite incorrect about mega-doses of vitamin C.

Does exercise make us hungry? I can state that personally, it doesn't seem to affect my hunger much, unless I'm doing a lot of exercise at high levels of exertion. Thirty to sixty minutes of moderate exercise doesn't really make me hungrier. It does have the benefit of burning calories, as well as removing boredom and mindless snacking, both of which are beneficial to weight loss.
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VeganKitten

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2009, 10:53:29 am »

I have read that moderate aerobic exercise can actually reduce hunger or be neutral ... and that intense weight training can trigger BIG hunger.

That fits with my experience - the day of and day after my big resistance workout, I am HUNGRY. With reason -- I've gained muscle. But it's a very hard-to-ignore, hard-to-suppress hunger. I end up going with it, and trying to satisfy it with reasonable amounts of nutrient-dense real food.

EDITED: Linky! Science Daily: Exercise Suppresses Appetite By Affecting Appetite Hormones
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Clarinette

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2009, 02:22:48 pm »

NTB,

And what is difficult to understand is that I have the tendency to be hypoglycemic. I don't have that on SLD. I never feel weak of not eating in time as when I am off of SLD. I would have thought the opposite because of the SW.

shovelqueen

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2009, 03:40:16 pm »

Actually, it makes perfect sense, according to this theory.  Hypoglycemia is caused by an over-reaction of the insulin response to carbohydrate ingestion, causing your blood sugar to rapidly drop too low, and so you feel like crap.  If you can take your sugar flavourlessly, and in a way that does not trigger that insulin response, then you get the sugar circulating in your bloodstream, making you feel fueled and OK. 

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NTB

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2009, 06:08:35 pm »

And what is difficult to understand is that I have the tendency to be hypoglycemic. I don't have that on SLD. I never feel weak of not eating in time as when I am off of SLD. I would have thought the opposite because of the SW.

Actually, it makes perfect sense, according to this theory.  Hypoglycemia is caused by an over-reaction of the insulin response to carbohydrate ingestion, causing your blood sugar to rapidly drop too low, and so you feel like crap.  If you can take your sugar flavourlessly, and in a way that does not trigger that insulin response, then you get the sugar circulating in your bloodstream, making you feel fueled and OK. 

Hypoglycemia is complex and can have many different causes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoglycemia),  While an easily triggered insulin response is one possibility it's not the only one.  But regardless of the cause, I agree with Shovelqueen that SW should correct the low blood sugar and keep it stable as long as you don't take too much sugar too quickly.   I think all of this is about keeping blood sugar in narrow range.

That gets me back to Pinkmug's query about the glycemic index:

I think my smallish post went unnoticed amidst the big posts... but I'm still curious: Todd, if maintaining a homeostatic weight depends on insulin, what do you think about the Glycemic Index Diet? Is it helpful for weight control?

I do think that the glycemic index, or something like it, is useful.   Foods with a low GI provide "slow release" glucose to the blood stream, preventing a high spike in glucose that would trigger insulin and lead to both weight gain (by shunting the glucose via the liver to glycogen or fat stores) and hunger (by dropping the glucose concentration down quickly). But a low GI is not an excuse to over-consume carbohydrates -- portion size matters.  There is some debate as to the reliability of glycemic index as a true predictor of the actual physiological glucose release profile, so an alternate measure, the "glycemic load" has been proposed as a better measure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycemic_load) because it adjusts for a constant portion size, rather than a constant amount of sugar.  So, for example, Watermelon has a very high glycemic index because its sugars are so readily digestible, but a very low glycemic load, because you'd have to eat a lot of watermelon to get much sugar.  On the other hand, ice cream has a moderate GI, but in typical portions it delivers a high glycemic load.

I'm also very interested in the discussion about exercise.  In my case, exercise usually suppresses my appetite and gives me hours of energy, but I've also had the opposite experience of getting tired and hungy afterwords.  Probably depends on many factors -- your glycogen stores, your blood levels of sugars and triglycerides, your insulin and glucagon levels, etc., etc.  But I think one of the most illuminating discussions of excercise and insulin is in "Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes' Solution: A Complete Guide to Achieving Normal Blood Sugars" (http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Bernsteins-Diabetes-Solution-Achieving/dp/0316167169/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240536499&sr=8-1).  Bernstein, a diabetic, almost died from diabetes at age 35 when following the conventional AMA guidelines.  On his own, he figured out how to taper off his use of insulin by cutting carbs and employing anaerobic excercise to build his muscles and reverse his insulin insensitivity. (He gives convincing reasons as to why weight training is far more beneficial than aerobic exercise for addressing insulin problems). He found that keeping glucose in a very narrow range provided huge health benefits, and was one of the first to promote frequently glucose monitoring.  He became fit and overcame all his diabetic symptoms.   I think his understanding of how diet and exercise can improve insulin sensitivity and normalize blood sugars provides an inspirational lesson to all of us - not just diabetics, but pre-diabetics, hypoglycemics....probably ALL of us.
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BJane

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2009, 08:18:54 pm »

And there is another idea, discussed on several threads of this forum, based upon the book Survival of the Thinnest, which proposes that 30 minutes a day of intense aerobic exercise will cause the body to shed fat.  Your thoughts in the context of the insulin hypotheses?

Hi Kirk,

This is sort of a tangent, but I suspect that it has some small bit of relevancy.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=370176
Insulin stimulates the activity of Lipoprotein Lipase on adipose tissue. LPL acts to draw fatty acids into the fat cells for storage (simplified version!).

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/268/2/E229
Exercise stimulates the activity of LPL on muscle tissue. That is, LPL acts to draw fatty acids into the muscle cells for use as fuel (also simplified version).

I don't know if insulin is affected by exercise, but I guess if you exercise you will have fatty acids moving into muscle rather than fat tissue.
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