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Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment

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Author Topic: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment  (Read 413292 times)

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Pinkmug

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2009, 01:51:04 AM »

Thanks for your comment, Todd. I've been reading a bit on the low GI diet, and (of course) there are as many studies confirming its effectiveness, as studies that point to the contrary. Some dietitians are even very against the low GI diet, e.g. Marion Franz. And as you wisely pointed out, the glycemic load is more meaningful than the glycemic index, as even the cooking method may change the GI of a food. Like in many other topics, the more you read the more doubts arise. My mind is very foggy right now  :?

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Heidi 555

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2009, 05:00:26 AM »

The length of the flavorless window I'm sure depends upon your biochemical individuality, your basal insulin levels, your degree of insulin resistance and, as you mention, the size and composition of your last meal.  Mostly, this is influenced by carbohydrates, but protein has 50% of the insulin inducing ability of carbohydrates.  To me, the best indicator would be hunger.  I would go as long as you can and take the oil when you are just starting to feel slight pangs of hunger (but before you are ravenously hungry).  This is a sign that your blood sugar is starting to get low and probably your insulin is low or on the way down.  I actually think the best time to take the oil is the very first thing in the morning, since it is well known that your body goes into fat burning mode all night (if you haven't eating a big meal right before bed), and your insulin is low.  Upon waking, the body natural secretes insulin, which causes the appetite to increase first thing in the morning.  If you take the oil before the morning hunger kicks in, I think you will keep it at bay and you can skip breakfast because the oil will "feed" you all morning with nice fat buring AS.
So I've been giving this a try and not having good results.  I took straight heavy cream 2 mornings in a row and once before dinner.  I didn't measure it, but I took a good amount each time.  I would estimate that I took at least 400 calories of it.  (The cream had separated making it hard to measure.  I ate some of the solids and drank some liquid.  Then followed it with a glass of water.)  One time I took it in the morning long before I got hungry and would eat something.  I seemed to get hungry sooner than usual.  The next time I took it when I was just starting to get hungry.  I ended up having to follow the cream with a meal less than an hour later.  When I took it before dinner I was able to exercise and delay dinner for an hour or so.  But overall the cream has me consuming a lot more calories than I normally would consume without giving me the feeling of satiety that I expected to get.  (I am preTOM and exercising so my hunger has been more pronounced.)  But so far I think that a combo of protein, carbs, and fat gives better AS.  Maybe protein and fat would work better for me?  Nose clipped sardines tend to give me better AS than other foods.  Maybe I'll try that today. 

If I end a meal with some cream it tends to give me good satiety.  I love to have some creamy drink for dessert.
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It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

NTB

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2009, 08:00:13 AM »

So I've been giving this a try and not having good results.  I took straight heavy cream 2 mornings in a row and once before dinner.  I didn't measure it, but I took a good amount each time.  I would estimate that I took at least 400 calories of it.  (The cream had separated making it hard to measure.  I ate some of the solids and drank some liquid.  Then followed it with a glass of water.)  One time I took it in the morning long before I got hungry and would eat something.  I seemed to get hungry sooner than usual.  The next time I took it when I was just starting to get hungry.  I ended up having to follow the cream with a meal less than an hour later.  When I took it before dinner I was able to exercise and delay dinner for an hour or so.  But overall the cream has me consuming a lot more calories than I normally would consume without giving me the feeling of satiety that I expected to get.  (I am preTOM and exercising so my hunger has been more pronounced.)  But so far I think that a combo of protein, carbs, and fat gives better AS.  Maybe protein and fat would work better for me?  Nose clipped sardines tend to give me better AS than other foods.  Maybe I'll try that today. 

If I end a meal with some cream it tends to give me good satiety.  I love to have some creamy drink for dessert.
Heidi555,  Thanks for sharing your experience.  I do have a few questions about the cream, since you mention it separated.  Was this heavy whipping cream, or another form of cream such as light cream or half-and-half?  Normally, heavy whipping cream does not separate unless it has been sitting around a very long time.   And forms of cream other than heavy whipping cream typically have lower fat and higher sugars (i.e. carbs).  According to Wikipedia, the fat contents vary considerably:

# Half and half (10.5–18% fat)
# Light, coffee, or table cream (18–30% fat)
# Medium cream (25% fat)
# Whipping or light whipping cream (30–36% fat)
# Heavy whipping cream (36% or more)

If you read the nutritional labels, be sure that there are zero sugars, otherwise you will induce an insulin response, which will cause the triglycerides in the cream to become fixed in your fat cells, driving fats and sugars out of the bloodstream, and inducing hunger.

I typically don't take the cream straight, I dilute it with water right in the glass to the consistency of milk, which makes it more drinkable.  By diluting it with water you can drink a full glass and that helps you feel full.   If one glass isn't enough, try two!  Eventually this has to induce AS and it should wipe out any cravings within 15-30 minutes after drinking.  Assuming you have left a long enough flavorless and foodless window in advance, your blood sugars and insulin should be low, so the fat in the cream should not result in any fattening of you!
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Heidi 555

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2009, 08:18:56 AM »

It was organic heavy cream that was at or past the expiration date, which might have been why it had separated.  I took it nose clipped and I did drink a glass of water after taking it to remove the taste. 

I did try the sardines and that gave amazing AS in comparison.  I had one can of nose clipped sardines that was packed in water.  I drank the juice from the sardines and ate some plain mesclun mix with it.  It was probably a bit over 200 calories total and kept me satisfied for much longer than usual.

I'm at my goal weight and not really needing to lose more (though I am trying to tighten up a few small areas).  So my interest in exploring this is for the health benefits of good blood sugar levels.  I'm not sure why but fat by itself doesn't give good AS for me.  Fat plus protein works much better.  Or perhaps fat mixed with carbs.  I try to eat what my body is craving.  There are times (especially in the evening) when a good dose of carbs satisfies and fills me up. 
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It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

goblyn

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2009, 06:51:31 AM »

After reading this post, I checked out the sugar content of the various creams at the grocery store, and at least at the one near me, the cream labeled as "heavy cream" still had 1 g of sugar, and the one labeled whipping cream had more.  The only other types they had there were half and half and light cream, which I know have more sugar. 

So are you sure there is such a thing as heavy cream that has zero sugar?  Or is it just impossible to find here in New England (where Heidi is from as well)?
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NTB

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2009, 07:49:52 AM »

After reading this post, I checked out the sugar content of the various creams at the grocery store, and at least at the one near me, the cream labeled as "heavy cream" still had 1 g of sugar, and the one labeled whipping cream had more.  The only other types they had there were half and half and light cream, which I know have more sugar. 

So are you sure there is such a thing as heavy cream that has zero sugar?  Or is it just impossible to find here in New England (where Heidi is from as well)?

According to the nutrition label on Berkeley Farms Heavy Whipping Cream (http://www.livestrong.com/thedailyplate/nutrition-calories/food/berkeley-farms/heavy-whipping-cream/), based in Hayward, California, a one tablespoon serving of heavy whipping cream has 60 calories, with 6 grams of fat, and zero grams of sugars or other carbohydrates. 

I think if you are sensitive to carbohydrates or if the heavy whipping cream doesn't work for whatever reason, just stick with oils and SW, or noseclipped foods.  The point is that your chances of AS are increased by taking them on an empty stomach first thing in the morning (before insulin levels typically rise due to the dawn phenomenon) or with a sufficiently long flavorless, calorie-less window.   Then you are "charging" your bloodstream and liver with a "stealth" bolus of available calories for immediate energy, without unnecessarily raising insulin levels that would deplete these available nutrients and lead to hunger cravings.   A little exercise, physical activity or other adrenaline producing activities (short term stress) should also help mobilize fatty acids and sustain the AS.

I'm also finding that anything I can do to improve insulin sensitivity in the muscle tissues helps improve the ready availability of fuel to the muscles and brain and keeps down AS.  In this respect, there is a lot of research indicating that anaerobic exercise (weight training and sprints or interval training) is far more effective at improving insulin sensitivity (reducing insulin resistance) which further reduces the need for the pancreas to supply excess insulin. The more weight training I've been doing (to the point of muscle exhaustion) the more AS I get, whereas going for an easy jog or walk doesn't always do this as effectively.
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Heidi 555

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2009, 08:46:37 AM »

I threw out the cream container but this was the cream that I had.  It says  that it has zero sugars.  http://www.organicvalley.coop/products/milk-and-cream/heavy-whipping-cream/ultra-pasteurized-16oz/

It would be nice if all the flavorless calories I consume help to stabilize my blood sugar.  I wish there was an easy way to know and track what is going on with blood sugar levels. 
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It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

nougat

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2009, 10:06:09 AM »

phew - just discovered this thread and spent the last 2 hours reading it - phew.

i must admit that some part of it has gone right over my head.

for me the most important point is that for me to lose weight i must lower my insulin and try not to stimulate the vagus (right?) nerve. 

i would like to add that when i did oil my hormones went haywire.  (i'm 49)

but if i did lower the insulin etc in whatever way, i would get AS anyway.

now can anyone translate these findings into a 'what not to eat' guide???
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Outrayjust

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2009, 10:07:26 AM »

Taubes says that exercise makes us hungry, not lose weight.  On the other hand, there is that American reality TV show which has a bunch of obese contestants show up at the beginning of the season, and several months later they've lost incredible amounts of weight.  Yes, they changed their diet during their time.  But they've also been exercising like football players at training camp, because the doctor who consulted to the show had previously observed that professional football players cannot retain or gain weight at training camp, no matter what they eat.  And there is another idea, discussed on several threads of this forum, based upon the book Survival of the Thinnest, which proposes that 30 minutes a day of intense aerobic exercise will cause the body to shed fat.  Your thoughts in the context of the insulin hypotheses?

I'm clearly not a scientific expert but I know a little in this area. Form research; from experience. I'll sum this up in layman's terms (only way I can) and let the geniuses pick it apart.

When you exercise at a very high rate - i.e., raise your heart rate to a level that makes it uncomfortable to have a normal conversation and/ or breath - you do not burn fat, you burn sugar. This type of exercising will lead to a ravenous hunger as it's tapping into your body's immediate energy reserves, not its stores. And this triggers a need to eat more to get some immediate energy.

However, when you do anaerobic exercise - or even aerobic just a more slow and steady rate which allows a comfortable conversation - you will tap into your body's fat stores. This will not trigger an immediate hunger response because your not burning sugar.

The latter was one of the main keys to my rapid 100+ weight loss. I concentrated on duration of movement, not speed. In fact, I didn't care how far I went (walking was my mainstay) only that I walked 30-60 minutes a day. Interestingly, not only did this not trigger hunger, it actually gave me a form of AS.

~Outy

IndianGirl

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2009, 10:19:42 PM »



However, when you do anaerobic exercise - or even aerobic just a more slow and steady rate which allows a comfortable conversation - you will tap into your body's fat stores. This will not trigger an immediate hunger response because your not burning sugar.


I am wondering why body fat is burnt in this case, and not blood sugar?
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kt

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2009, 04:15:57 PM »


Now where this gets very interesting is that when insulin levels are elevated, as after a large meal, particularly containing carbohydrates), glucose and fatty acids in the bloodstream are rapidly taken up by the cells, depleting their levels in the blood and inducing hunger.  This often causes more eating and more depletion and hunger in several cycles.  Whereas when insulin levels are low, as on a low carb diet or the SLD diet (I'll explain why shortly), fat cells cells readily release fatty acids and the liver and muscles release glucose from there glycogen storage, creating the sense of satiety or appetite suppression, which further reduces eating...and leads to weight loss.


Thanks for all of the info, Todd...it'll help me to tweak my SLD method for my needs.

Just want to point out that insulin levels are low on low glycemic load diets as well, unless low is defined lower than I realize.  I spend a lot of time getting friends/family to recognize slowly digested carbs for what they contribute to our health.   Removing processed carbs is healthy and optimal, reducing veggie, legume and whole grains themselves (not flours) leaves people pursuing less healthy foods to fill the gap.  Semantics, I know, but even my well-educated astute parents are eating lean animal protein at every meal in their attempt to avoid "too many" carbs.  See T. Colin Campbell's The China Study if you'd like to learn more about one extremely important take on optimal nutrition for humans...

Kate
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 07:18:05 PM by kt »
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kt

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2009, 05:45:38 PM »

In any case, I'd be interested to hear what others think of the the insulin hypothesis as an alternative to the pure behavioral and evolutionary explanations.  (Notice that in all of the above discusion, there was no need to refer to evolutionary theories of feast or famine by our ancestors!)


The Pima, and the Kosraens ("most obese on Earth" and similar to Hawaiians genetically and culturally) are likely to have the incredibly high insulin response you described, and when consuming nontraditional foods, they become ill.  On their traditional  (low-glycemic load, see The New Glucose Revolution for "load" data based on reasonable portions...eliminating the carrot fallacy) but also relatively less strongly flavored foods when compared to Western) diets, which were definitely subject to feast/famine cycles, the insulin response would have remained low during famine, then reacted crazily as you noted during times of plenty.  Although the modern (1970 to present) Kosraen experience is constantly blamed on rice, I disagree.  The more likely culprit is the taste for salty foods which include imported canned fish, Spam aplenty, soy sauce on everything, catsup, lard (instead of labor and resource intensive coconut oil) and other intense flavors now available to all.  Local foods prior to a money economy included tropical fruits, breadfruit, taro, tapioca, fish, birds (until they ate them all), pigs and dogs, and the all-important yam.

As for the Pima, you probably know more than I do...I'd love to see the insulin information you've discussed and Seth's theory applied to public health discussions of "thrifty genes" if that's still the terminology.   In Survival of the Sickest( Dr. Sharon Maolem, Ph.D. in human physiology, neurogenetics and evolutionary medicine) discussion points to the experiences of the grandmother being passed on to ova in the next two generations at least (still not sure that I get the generational aspect of that, but the effect on either the granddaughter alone or the mother and granddaughter is to turn on/off the expression of genes due to the process of methylation in the dna of the ova...obviously in a son, too, but not, of course, in his nonexistent ova).

Having seen the effect of a Western diet on the American born children of my Sicilian and Irish grandparents, I wonder if Seth's work on this could really help many, many people, especially if it is pursued from the measurable insulin reponse standpoint in tailoring intervention/food plans for individuals, as we've been doing for ourselves here.

My best,

Kate
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 07:04:02 PM by kt »
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kt

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2009, 06:56:33 PM »

As a practical matter, if I believe in a "setpoint" for my weight, the SLD theory tells me I can temporarily "trick" my body into lowering my setpoint by taking shots of oil or sugar water or pinching my nose when I'm eating.  But once I stop doing SLD, I'm doomed to return to my "setpoint" weight which is somehow (mysteriously) predetermined by genetics, or how I grew up, or God or fate or whatever.   It is a somewhat pessimistic and fatalistic view, in that my body is a black box that I can't understand, and I can't really control the outcome over the long term without being stuck on this weird diet.



Except that Seth explains in his book that between meals, or when we skip meals, our setpoint is driven down, then raised again by the flavors/calories of the things we eat...the net effect of this process determines the setpoint (a mean of the ups and downs over time).  This could be analogous to circulating insulin averaged over time, controlling appetite, etc., but the net effect is the same - a setpoint that can be altered by understanding the body's responses to food. 

I can name for you the setpoints I have encountered in my adult life, ranging over many years, all while not dieting, with a huge range in activity levels (running 10Ks-sedentary)  but clearly encountering setpoint altering events (or insulin/hormone system changing events/eating styles).  As in 142 lbs for 4 years, 160 for 3 years, 180 for 6 years.  I was not watching my weight at all, but found that it didn't change...until it changed substantially and then stayed at the next setpoint.

In this way, our total dietary patterns/hormone release trends add up to a setpoint for us at a point in time.  The intervention method in SLD (of flavorfree calories) pushes down the setpoint in effect for a person right now.  It can also be achieved in a more comprehensive throughout the diet approach (see The Rice Diet, by the Rosatis), where you change your eating patterns until you are eating foods that add up to lowering your setpoint.  Whole foods, low glycemic load foods, bland foods are all foods which in Seth's experience drove down his desire to eat...I have the same experience. 

You aren't doomed to return to your previous setpoint if you stop with oil/SW, noseclipping...you simply have to apply the same principles to all of your food/a great majority of your food.  Less intense flavors, slowly digested foods, homecooked foods which are never exactly the same as the last time all are ways to maintain the new lower weight setpoint after loss. 

The reason most of us try to stick with it is that our daily lives prevent us from being cautious enough to avoid raising the setpoint again.  I guarantee that if I ate the early diet of Pima or Kosraen indigenous (or early Irish or Sicilian), all low flavor/calorie associated foods, my setpoint would remain low enough to satisfy me.

We are, in T. Colin Campbell's words, suffering from widespread "diseases of affluence," all resulting from a food habit which causes a plethora of problems, the most visible of which is obesity.

Regards,

Kate
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kt

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2009, 07:31:23 PM »


P.S. To answer your last question, "in real life" I am a biochemical engineer at a biotech company.  I'm actually not trained at all in physiology, but I just have a strong personal interest in the science behind nutrition (as opposed to popular or politically correct nutrition), and I suppose my training as an engineer carries over to this personal interest.  I'm also an inventor on over 20 issued patents, so I'm always interested in finding out if there is a "better way" to do things...hence my quest that ended up in the creation of "oil milk" as a more palatable way to consume oils on the SLD.

In the interest of full disclosure, Todd, are you a biochemical engineer at a biotech company which develops pharmaceuticals?  i.e. Genentech or some such?  What types of patents do you hold?  I understand that you may be developing stents or some other excellent technology, but I have to wonder about obesity-treating meds...

I am a K-12 teacher with persistent curiosity.

Optimistically,

Kate
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VeganKitten

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #89 on: August 08, 2009, 10:49:27 PM »

This fits with my experience:
Quote
where you change your eating patterns until you are eating foods that add up to lowering your setpoint.

I've maintained a 50-pound loss for the past 9 years. My diet of the past several years is quite different than the diet that got me to my highest weight. Maintenance has been pretty easy, on a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

Now, though, I want to push my setpoint down further... and I'm trying to figure out how many flavorless calories it's going to take. I only want to lose about 5 pounds at this point.
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