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Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment

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Author Topic: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment  (Read 355963 times)

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Heidi 555

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2009, 07:45:57 PM »

Todd Ė thanks so much for taking the time to come back and write yet another stimulating post.† I hope that youíll post more as your thinking and ideas are excellent.† Iíll have to reread your post when my brain is more alert.† And also read the chapters you mentioned in Taubes book.† (I confess that I didnít make it all the way through Taubesí tome.)† However, I have a few initial questions.†

What would it take to test your theory?† Has someone already done tests/experiments measuring the blood sugar levels of someone eating food with flavor and then a number of days later eating the same diet but without flavor?† What would it entail if I wanted to test this out for myself?

Could you explain a bit more about how a small amount of oil taken once a day would offer a sustained insulin lowering effect for the rest of the day or even the next day?† I just nose clip (no oil or sugar water).† Definitely for me eating meals with flavor is very stimulating in terms of appetite and also just stimulating in general.† Flavorless (nose clipped) food is calming in comparison.† †But the strongest response in terms of AS (or lack of AS) tends to be the following day.† †People taking oil also mention AS from the oil peaking a good number of hours or even a day later.† Wouldnít insulin levels give the strongest response more immediately following the nose-clipped meal or taking of the oil?†

Wouldnít the body recognize sugar water and raise insulin levels even though it has no flavor?

Also, how do you think that flavors without calories (CFF) fit with your theory?† For some people CFF suppresses appetite but I thought that no/low calorie sweeteners still invoked an insulin response.† †

Could you give an update on what youíve done and your results in terms of your own diet.† Do you still do SLD?† Do you eat low carb?† I would think that according to your theory it would be best to combine several insulin lowering approaches, such as doing both SLD and low carb.†

Quote
On the other hand, it should be encouraging to those who have the patience and persistence to know that, as they lose weight and reduce insulin levels, their basal insulin levels will slowly decrease, and maintaining their low weight will become easier with time.
But one would still need to continue to eat low carb or continue with SLD, right?†

I guess I had more questions than I thought.† Your theory sounds really plausible, Iím just trying to get my mind around it more fully and understand how it fits with my experience.† I am very interested in a theory that explains the physiology of what happens with SLD, because Sethís theory doesnít cover that aspect.† For me so far your theory doesnít contradict Sethís, but complements it and perhaps fills in missing pieces.

I also would be interested in any other self-experiments or info on inventions that you wanted to share.

Thanks again.
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It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

BJane

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2009, 09:04:16 PM »

Wow - this took an incredibly interesting turn! I ran to Borders to get a copy of Taubes' tome and have read through chapters 22-24.

Heidi555, I speculate that you could measure the insulin response to various foods in order to test the hypothesis, for example following nose-clipped vs unclipped meals, sugar-water, and oil (both flavorless and flavorful).

Unfortunately, as far as I know, most home devices measure blood glucose levels, not insulin levels (but I could be wrong :D Don't take my word for it).

Even though the sugar water probably triggers an insulin response, it may not trigger the pre-prandial insulin response... which means that sugar-water may have a smaller insulin response when taken alone than if taken with stimulating flavors. Fructose by itself doesn't trigger an insulin response at all, so I speculate that fructose may be more efficient than sucrose as a shangri-la flavor-free calorie.

Also, SLD might affect the basal insulin levels, which would probably allow more fatty acids to be released from adipose tissue into the blood stream - and be available as fuel.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 10:29:11 PM by BJane »
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VeganKitten

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2009, 09:09:39 PM »

NTB: Thank you for this.
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IndianGirl

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2009, 02:07:57 AM »

Todd, enlightening discussion, thanks.

Whenever I take SLD oil, I get weak after a couple of hours of taking the oil. My hands quiver and I need to quickly eat. I distinctly experience a  blood sugar crash on days I take oil in SLD fashion, even if I have eaten reasonable quantities of food on those days. On days I dont take SLD oil and eat the same quantities of food, I dont experience a blood sugar crash. What do you think is happening?
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Heidi 555

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2009, 04:50:38 AM »

Thanks Bjane for your response.  I'm really ignorant around all this so any input is helpful.  I know that people with diabetes measure their blood sugar levels many times a day.  But I really don't know what they're measuring and what it entails.  But Todd's theory sounds like something that a handful of motivated people could test out via self-experimentation.

Quote
Also, SLD might affect the basal insulin levels, which would probably allow more fatty acids to be released from adipose tissue into the blood stream - and be available as fuel.
I'm not familiar with this at all.  Bjane, if you know of any sources that explain this please point them out.  Thanks. 
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It took 1 year of nose clipping
to lose 20 pounds (from about 140 to 120)
Dropped from size 8-10 to size 4
I'm 5' 4.5"

Read about my success nose clipping regular food instead of doing oil or sugar: http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=5903.

shovelqueen

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2009, 05:16:20 AM »

Unfortunately, as far as I know, most home devices measure blood glucose levels, not insulin levels (but I could be wrong :D Don't take my word for it).

Home monitors only measure circulating blood sugar levels and are a "snapshot" of that moment in time, no any kind of indicaton of long term blood sugar levels or control.  Measuring circulating insulin levels is rare, and most family docs don't even know what I mean if I request it for a client.  It simply isn't something that has been measured before to any extent, though that may be changing as the knowledge around the increased role of insulin in energy metabolism is being disseminated.

Years ago, my brother was being seen by a bariatric specialist (doc who specializes in obesity - there are only a few around), and he had his fasting insulin level checked.  First time I'd seen that done (and I'm a Registered Dietitian!) His was way high, and the treatment prescribed was a low carb diet.  Worked, too.  While he stuck to it, that is. 

Todd, my username is one that I earned while doing development work in Central America.  We build using cement block and usually make all our cement and mortar on the ground, without a mixer other than us with shovels.  It's incredibly heavy work, but I love doing it, and I'm strong enough (for a middle-aged, white collar working, Canadian woman, that is) to have earned the respect of my fellow builders, and even some of the Guatemalans. :D  I've been down there 5 times, and hope to keep going for years to come.  It's life-changing and life-affirming work, and a neat "holiday".  One of my friends is refered to as "Pick-Axe Mary", and she's in her 70's!! :shock:
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Polaroid Doll

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2009, 05:40:22 AM »

Todd,
  Thatís a very interesting and apparently well-thought-out theory. To echo the others, I hope youíll stick around, or at least occasionally stop by for comment occasionally, as itís nice to see discussion from someone with a proper biological background (and donít be modestÖbiochemistry may not be about the body, but the description of the chemical processes which occur in the body is as relevant as how the body itself is constructed).
  As noted by others, I do see a possible inconsistency between SLD and the theory regarding the use of sugar water within the context of the theory. The sugar in the water will invoke the same insulin response; yet some people claim it gives highly effective AS. The AS could be due to an entirely different mechanism, or it could even be a placebo effect, and yes, Iíll brace myself for a bunching of flaming retorts hereÖ

  If we assume that the theory is correct, I think the insulin response could be of particular concern to certain people, such as diabetics. I have heard anecdotal evidence of the AS effects of low insulin (such as news stories reporting young diabetic women skipping their insulin doses in order to lose/manage weight), but Iíve read very little about insulin as being the main substance to control appetite. Do you have a reference that you could recommend for further information?
  Overall, I think your ideas are quite plausible, as well as the most consistent Iíve heard.
  Cheers!
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m.c.

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2009, 07:00:39 AM »


Todd this is a great discussion. Thank you so much for contributing your thoughts. I have a lot of the same questions as Heidi posed. My experience with ingesting oil is not unlike Indiangirl's ( below). Not everytime mind you or I wouldn't drink the oil but often enough to have made me curious about what is happening. I am also one of those people who cannot under any conditions take sugar in water. I get a headache, become ravenously hungry and uber bitchy. :lol:



Whenever I take SLD oil, I get weak after a couple of hours of taking the oil. My hands quiver and I need to quickly eat. I distinctly experience a  blood sugar crash on days I take oil in SLD fashion, even if I have eaten reasonable quantities of food on those days. 
 
 
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Pinkmug

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2009, 07:21:32 AM »

Very interesting, Todd! And oh you're the "creator" of oilmilk? Well, that ended up being too palatable for me, in a heartbeat I was having way more than I should as it's really pleasant to take... I had to give up.

Anyway just glancing your comeback post. One Q that occurs to me: I spent some months drinking fructose water and never lost any weight. How does that fit in your insulin theory?

Also: since there is a GI diet - having low glycemic meals, under 50 in the GI index, ain't it easy to test you theory - is the GI diet effective for weight loss?

When you say :
First, the lipostat theory does not explain how the brain actually monitors our fat stores Maybe, but we do know that the brain monitors how much fat we have by means of the circulating amounts of leptin - the more fat, the more leptin - right?

i agree with you that it's far more useful to look for a quantifiable explanation of all this than try to figure out what our ancestor cavepeople did, not only because there's almost no records but also because we may have somewhat genetically changed since then, or at least some ethnicities may have, as a adaptation (videlicet the lactose tolerance).
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Kirk

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2009, 04:37:45 PM »

I was searching around regarding another issue and came across this thread, which seems relevant.  http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=45.0

Meanwhile, I have the same questions as Heidi555, with an additional question as to how Crazy Spicing works via the insulin hypothesis.
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BJane

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2009, 06:39:52 PM »

Meanwhile, I have the same questions as Heidi555, with an additional question as to how Crazy Spicing works via the insulin hypothesis.

Hi Kirk,

It is all speculation at this point, no definitive answers, but *if* the pre-prandial insulin response is due to a "learned" response (in neurological terms) that the vagus nerve has to flavors, then new/weird/unexpected flavors may not provide a very large insulin response... until the glucose hits the blood stream.
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NTB

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2009, 08:53:58 PM »

Wow!† A lot of great questions and suggestions.† †Let me try to respond:

1.† Regarding tests of my theory, I too have thought how nice it would be to have a blood insulin meter I could use to check my levels before and after various dietary experiments.† Alas, to my knowledge, these are not yet available to consumers, as are the ubiquitous blood glucose meters that diabetics routinely use.† †I have read some articles on some devices that are now in development, but probably still years away from being in drugstores.† †Unfortunately, one cannot use blood glucose measurements to calculate or make any reliable inferences about insulin levels -- the two are independent measurements at any given moment in time, since blood sugar depends not only on insulin level, but also whether one has recently eaten, fasted, or excercised.

On the other hand, there are plenty of "tests" of my theory in the medical and scientific literature, where insulin levels of humans and animals have been extensively measured in response to various feeding protocols, including foods with different macronutrient compositions, flavors, frequencies, etc.† †The article I cited by Karen Teff in Reply #27 is but one example.† I'd like to encourage anyone reading this to see what they can find to confirm or refute my proposals here.

2.† Hedi555 asks how a small amount of oil taken one day could suppress appetite into the following day.† I don't really know for sure.† But I suspect it is due primarily to the fact that it is not just the small amount of oil, but also the time window before and after the oil that strongly suppresses insulin levels.† It takes time for insulin levels to come down after they are high.† It is well known that a high fat meal (which would include pure oil) suppresses insulin and allows free fatty acid levels to remain high in the bloodstream, signaling satiety.† But the fats must be consumed in the absence of glucose, which is why you have to wait a few hours before taking the oil.† †And the oil further reduces circulating insulin to a trace level.† Furthermore, low insulin will allow additional fatty acids to be released from the adipose tissue, and continuously burned as a fuel -- so satiety will be maintained for hours and hours...maybe days!† † At that point, eating further meals will be done in the context of there already being a lot of fuel in the bloodstream, so the satiety signal will come soon, particularly if the meal is not too large or rich in carbohydrates (or to a lesser extent, high in protein, which also induces insulin).† †Continued high fat meals or flavorless oils will continue to suppress appetite.† In fact, besides the SLD, the most effective weight loss method I've found is a high fat diet, with low carbs, but also relatively low protein.† †This really leads to great appetite suppression and easy weight loss.† And, after reading the first half of Taubes, I'm more and more convinced it is safe and healthy, even using some saturated fats.† (Salads with a few nuts and goat cheese are great!).

3.† Regarding how sugar water suppresses appetite, I'm inclined to agree with BJane that, a small amount of sucrose without a flavor signal will avoid any preprandial secretion of insulin, and the insulin secreted will be a relatively small amount, such that glucose will remain in the bloodstream and signal satiety.† Again, this will only work if the insulin levels beforehand were low, which is a reason for waiting 2 hours before and after.† †So you are targeting a narrow window of sugar concentration -- high enough to provide satiety, but not so high as to raise insulin and cause the glucose to be shunted out of the bloodstream and into the liver to produce triglycerides.† My prediction is that increasing the amount of sugar to a much higher level will defeat this mechanism and you will actually get hungry once the insulin response kicks in and draws glucose out of the bloodstream.† Whereas, I believe that taking excess oil will only suppress appetite further.† †I'm not a sugar user and it didn't work for me -- so is there anyone out there who uses sugar who is willing try taking an excess of sugar to see if this prevents appetite suppression?† Or try very high oil levels and see how full you become.† (Try for example my oil milk recipe in the tips section, or if you are brave try a real treat --† a "cream soda" -- pour some heavy whipping cream over a few ice cubes and fill the glass to the top with bubbly mineral water.† No sugar, please!).

By the way, other than the explanation of "insulin quieting", is there any other explanation for Seth's window of 1-2 hours before and after taking the flavorless calories?† Seth explains the SLD as being based a learned dissociation between flavor and calories, but it seems to me rather odd that we can only learn to dissociate flavors from calories if they are separated in time by 1-2 hours, yet not 10-15 minutes.† †I don't know other cases of associational learning that have such strict limits on the time between presentations of the two items being associated.† Whereas the insulin hypothesis is based on very well established evidence of the rate at which insulin levels decline in most individuals.† (And may explain why in diabetics or obese individuals, one may have to adjust the timing of the SLD doses).

4.† Fructose should have less tendency to induce insulin than sucrose, at least initially.† But I've read research suggesting that ultimately it induces other physiological changes that lead to higher insulin levels, and even more rapid conversion to triglycerides than sucrose or other sugars.† I'm less sure about how fructose works.

5.† Several of you (m.c., Indiangirl) commented on a blood sugar crash or weakness shortly after taking the oil or the sugar.† † I can understand the effect with sugar for folks who have a high starting insulin level, because the sugar will further spike insulin and cause a blood sugar crash.† †In that case, I would suggest waiting longer before taking the sugar and cutting down the dose of sugar.† If that still causes a problem, it suggests you are very sensitive to insulin.† (A Glucose Tolerance Test by your doctor would confirm that).† †The blood sugar crash from the oil is harder to explain.† All I can think of is that, again, you need to wait longer after a meal, especially a high carbohydrate or sugary meal, so that you are not still digesting carbohydrates and so your insulin level is low.† How about trying it first thing in the morning, and maybe taking a large dose of oil, to be sure you get fuel into your bloodstream, while keeping insulin levels low?

6.† Regarding unusual spices or flavors, I tend to agree with BJane that these do not activate the vagal nerve or Pavlovian response to flavors, and hence preprandial insulin is avoided or minimized in the same manner as flavorless calories, thereby allowing stealth calories in a fashion that keeps insulin levels low.

7.† Kirk, that was a very intriguing thread you pointed me to on "How Does the Body Know Its Weight?"† In that thread, Seth Roberts proposes leptin as the biochemical agent that underlies the body weight setpoint, and answers the question as follows:†

It uses the concentration of leptin in the blood. Fat cells produce leptin--the more fat, the more leptin. The blood gathers the leptin from all the fat cells and carries it to the brain. The brain detects the concentration of leptin in the blood and uses it to judge how much fat is on the body. What is really regulated is not body fat but leptin concentration. Which is very closely correlated with body fat.

and later:

The diet works by reducing the signal against which the leptin concentration is compared. So it takes a lower leptin concentration to feel full.

But if you read closely, notice that Seth does not propose that leptin concentration is itself the setpoint.† Rather, he proposes that leptin is the signal which is compared to the setpoint, just like the temperature is the signal which is measured against a thermostat setpoint.† But this begs the question -- where and how is this setpoint level stored, and by what mechanism does the SLD diet change it? How do we get from oil or sugar to changing a physical setting within the hypothalmus or other part of the brain?† So Seth has not really has not answered the question of the physical reality of the setpoint.

Furthermore, I do not think that leptin has proven to be an adequate explanation for how hunger and satiety work.† A lot of the initial excitement over leptin came from the fact that very low leptin levels (and elevated ghrelin levels) are associated with hunger and appetite.† But the converse has not proven true -- elevated levels do not always indicate satiety.† In fact in obese individuals, the leptin signal seems not to work very well, due to leptin resistance, which is far more prevalent than even insulin resistance.† †I think that Taubes gives a far simpler and more satisfying account of hunger and satiety, directly in terms of the availability of fuel (glucose, fatty acids or ketone bodies) in the bloodstream, which most typically results when insulin levels are elevated and have depleted the bloodstream of these fuels by driving them into the tissues.† Leptin and other hormones are induced secondarily in response to insulin, which is really the driving hormone for fuel storage and mobilization.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:00:50 AM by NTB »
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NuLu

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2009, 12:51:53 AM »

This explains why taking oil when I am ravenous and my body is expecting some food soon (due to pre-prandial insulin secretion) does not give good AS.
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Polaroid Doll

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2009, 05:36:49 AM »

A thermostat doesn't work like a PID microcontroller (at least the typical type; newer digital models may have become more complicated). The thermostat is based on a coil of wire with a known coefficient of thermal expansion. As the metal expands and contracts, this triggers the heating system to turn 'on' or 'off'...it's basically an entirely analog relay switch.

Does anyone know if researchers have yet discovered a chemical 'signal' that turns a 'setpoint' on and off, or is this still at the theoretical stage?
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tek_vixen

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Re: Appetite Suppression vs. Setpoint Adjustment
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2009, 08:03:16 AM »

Very interesting, Todd.† My brain is really fuzzy from being so tired after visiting my daughter all weekend, but if I concentrate really hard, I think I can see a few points that help explain some things for me.† Like why SW makes me ravenously hungry -- at any concentration.† I'm known to be sensitive to sugar as indicated by gestational diabetes.† My initial thought when I read your theory was that it didn't make sense that I would have high insulin levels in my system.† Clearly, from my condition, my pancreas was putting out low levels of insulin.† But I hadn't considered that it was the other side of the equation that went wonky.† Given a certain amount of carbohydrate, my body was producing an excess of sugar in the bloodstream, more than a normal person would produce.† My insulin levels in response were going high, just not high enough to take care of the excessive blood sugar.† Hmmmmmm.

The one thing I'm struggling with, though, is that once they put me on insulin shots, your theory would predict that my hunger levels would increase.† They didn't.† Actually, it wasn't until they put me on insulin that my rate of weight gain decreased and I was in the normal range for pregnancy.† Any help with why this might have happened?

The other thing I need help understanding is how your theory predicts the increasing hunger many people get on low carb (or even low cal) diets as time goes on.† It's like the more weight you lose, the hungrier you become until you can't stand it any more.† I would think that as long as you're not changing consumption, insulin levels would stay stable, and so you wouldn't experience this hunger.

Thanks for taking the time to put forth your theory and supporting explanations.† It's great food for thought.† I just hope my brain doesn't explode!† :lol:† I need my spoon for my oatmeal, not for scooping my brain off the floor, and walls, and keyboard......... :shock:

T-Vix
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