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Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2006, 04:30:40 AM »

May 07, 2006 I was 188, today is June 9 and I'm 178.

I was thinking how sad I was that the weight loss had slowed back down.  Glad I'm keeping notes, after a while the numbers seem to blurr together.

This is the weight I'd originally had as my goal.  I'm only 5'5" so more weight loss is obviously possible, though I'm currently at a 44 inch chest and a 34 inch waist.

But today I'm so happy.

Off to drink my protien powder.

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2006, 09:10:13 AM »

Looking good!


 :D Congrats, Stephen!
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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2006, 07:09:12 PM »

May 07, 2006 I was 188, today is June 9 and I'm 178.

I was thinking how sad I was that the weight loss had slowed back down.  Glad I'm keeping notes, after a while the numbers seem to blurr together.

This is the weight I'd originally had as my goal.  I'm only 5'5" so more weight loss is obviously possible, though I'm currently at a 44 inch chest and a 34 inch waist.

But today I'm so happy.

Off to drink my protien powder.



Crikey!  44 inch chest?  What's your body fat %age, if you know?  With those kind of stats you may convince me on that meogenic lifting stuff you do (though the few weeks I tried it a few years ago I found it excruciating - especially leg work).

Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2006, 07:24:02 PM »

Quote
Crikey!  44 inch chest?  What's your body fat %age, if you know?  With those kind of stats you may convince me on that meogenic lifting stuff you do (though the few weeks I tried it a few years ago I found it excruciating - especially leg work).

I still have a good deal of fat.  And, worst of all, I had a rotator cuff inflamation that kept me from working my arms and shoulders for two years.  I finally gave in and went to a doctor.  Fix your posture, lose a little weight the guy said.  Didn't care how it happened (I tried bag work, did it wrong), he said "it doesn't matter how you got the problem, all that matters is how to fix it."  Sure enough, I worked on my posture, lost a little weight and my shoulders suddenly were fine.  Argghhhh, so simple, I still feel foolish.

I'll give you a secret.  For many people, at least for me, if I'm a notch off of failure I still make steady progress, and it is a lot less painful.  I'm really curious if that works for most people or not.  I found out by lifting after a long lay off.  I didn't want to hurt myself, so I started with pretty light weights.  Figured eventually I catch up to the "painful" sort of thing.  I ran out of weight first on a number of machines.  Right now I'm building my arms and shoulders and my thighs and hamstrings.  Everything else is pretty much within a weight or two of maintenance (when I switched to a better meo -- a full four seconds on the negative, I had to give up some weight, but I also made steady progress on one work-out a week instead of it just letting me keep even).

I found that being at failure just was more painful, I don't think I made progress any faster.  I'll find out with my legs and arms/shoulders as I get closer.  Right now I'm only 25% of the way up the stack on my arms/shoulders, but I move a weight about every three weeks.  I'm hoping to be much stronger by October.

But, the lose skin is shrinking, on the stretches where I feel the fat bunch up in the way, the fat is going down, and 160 is probably just perfect for me.  Since it is a weight class and i want to compete a little (I don't expect to really get far, but to have some fun) it makes a great target (178 is a weight class too.  Before they went metric, the weight class was 172, and I used to compete in it).

Keep me posted on how the weights work for you.

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2006, 08:09:09 PM »

Quote
Crikey!  44 inch chest?  What's your body fat %age, if you know?  With those kind of stats you may convince me on that meogenic lifting stuff you do (though the few weeks I tried it a few years ago I found it excruciating - especially leg work).

I still have a good deal of fat.  And, worst of all, I had a rotator cuff inflamation that kept me from working my arms and shoulders for two years.  I finally gave in and went to a doctor.  Fix your posture, lose a little weight the guy said.  Didn't care how it happened (I tried bag work, did it wrong), he said "it doesn't matter how you got the problem, all that matters is how to fix it."  Sure enough, I worked on my posture, lost a little weight and my shoulders suddenly were fine.  Argghhhh, so simple, I still feel foolish.

I'll give you a secret.  For many people, at least for me, if I'm a notch off of failure I still make steady progress, and it is a lot less painful.  I'm really curious if that works for most people or not.  I found out by lifting after a long lay off.  I didn't want to hurt myself, so I started with pretty light weights.  Figured eventually I catch up to the "painful" sort of thing.  I ran out of weight first on a number of machines.  Right now I'm building my arms and shoulders and my thighs and hamstrings.  Everything else is pretty much within a weight or two of maintenance (when I switched to a better meo -- a full four seconds on the negative, I had to give up some weight, but I also made steady progress on one work-out a week instead of it just letting me keep even).

I found that being at failure just was more painful, I don't think I made progress any faster.  I'll find out with my legs and arms/shoulders as I get closer.  Right now I'm only 25% of the way up the stack on my arms/shoulders, but I move a weight about every three weeks.  I'm hoping to be much stronger by October.

But, the lose skin is shrinking, on the stretches where I feel the fat bunch up in the way, the fat is going down, and 160 is probably just perfect for me.  Since it is a weight class and i want to compete a little (I don't expect to really get far, but to have some fun) it makes a great target (178 is a weight class too.  Before they went metric, the weight class was 172, and I used to compete in it).

Keep me posted on how the weights work for you.

Thanks for the info, definitely agree on the "to failure" stuff, not necessary.

If my current training regime stalls out, I will definitely be considering meogenic again.  Any good websites with more specific info than the PDF you posted before?  Thanks again.

Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2006, 09:18:45 PM »

If my current training regime stalls out, I will definitely be considering meogenic again.  Any good websites with more specific info than the PDF you posted before?  Thanks again.

Nope, I haven't been able to find anything other than several copies of that article.

I would note that Frank Metzer's High Intensity Training and several other methods are basically the same thing.  There are books, web-sites, etc. that discuss the concept of very slow training (and a group that is certified), etc.  Most seem to go overboard.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 08:23:33 PM by Stephen M (Ethesis) »
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Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2006, 05:33:23 AM »

Just a cross post ...

I just can't tell you how much your example means to all the rest of us, Stephen.  It helps to know that it isn't all easy for everybody, and it helps to know that sticking with it pays off in the end.


The diet just seems to take tweaking, and sometimes the tweaking doesn't mean anything, sometimes it does.

I recently decided to change the sugar I was sweeting my yogurt with from white sugar to brown sugar.  Suddenly I was hungry at night.  I went back to white sugar, I'm back to normal.

A lot of times I have to try changing one thing at a time.  Sometimes I'm sure the effects are just random noise (I've gone back to 4 tablespoons worth of flavorless calories, 180 cal of flavorless protien in water, later in the day two tablespoons of oil, now I eat less as a result, perhaps the 4 to 2 just happened when I was in a plateau -- I didn't recognize plateaus for regular features back then -- perhaps I was taking too much, but not getting any bonus appetite reduction.  I don't know).

But the brown sugar seems to have had a bad effect on me.  I'm glad to have given it up.

A lot of it is being patient, not taking risks (I know an hour time cushion works.  I know that for some people, they can shave it to 45 to 35 minutes or less.  I've decided not to find out right now), and waiting things out, realizing that things that mean failure on a normal diet (e.g. plateaus) are meaningless on this one.  As long as my appetite is suppressed and I'm thinking about food the Shangri-la way instead of the way I did, I'm ok and can just give it time.

The people it is really hard on is those who are losing 2-3 pounds a month.  A little water weight fluctuation, a little plateau and it is hard to see progress.  It is a lot easier at 7-8 pounds a month.

I just bought a pair of wrangler cargo pants with a 32" waist -- and they fit just right.  Had to go out and buy some 32" belts too.  I'm wearing Lands' End trim fit shirts (17" necks mind you, but the next batch will probably have 16.5" necks).  I'm stalling on getting too many clothes until I've flattened out my weight (18 pounds from here).  Then I can get my suits re-tailored and quit giving clothes away.

It is amazing to me.  I'm glad of it.

I'm also trying to put useful things in the FAQ section.  http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?board=12.0

If you have any ideas of things I should add, let me know.  I'm trying to cover basic things people need to understand.

Though I've gotten to the point where people from church keep calling me up for tweaking on their programs.  Weird to go from people not wanting to hear anything to having them call up.  (Most recently, tonight, from someone I gave one of the books to, "what kind of oil do you use again?" ;) ).  I'm hoping I can get them to agree to let Seth's publicist talk abou them.  I think in a couple more weeks, when I've got a bunch of success stories that will happen.

Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback, hope I'm not meandering too much tonight.

Stephen




Strange how I'm now getting stopped by strangers (people I've passed in the hall, but never talked to) and asked about how I lost weight and will I share my secret.

Also, good to know that the skin folds, and I'm lucky I don't have much loose skin, will go away with more weight loss.

I read some, mentioned it to my wife (who is a CRNA and has seen a lot of skin fold removal) and she remarked that she had never seen a skin fold removal where there wasn't a lot of fat.  It seems that as the fat leaves, the skin shrinks back up.  Compare the skin on the back of your hand to a usual skin fold which has about an inch or more of fat trapped in it (over half an inch a side).

177.5 this morning.  18 more pounds to lose (my goal is 160.2, but I want a tiny margin too).

Wish everyone well.

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2006, 10:55:19 AM »

If my current training regime stalls out, I will definitely be considering meogenic again.  Any good websites with more specific info than the PDF you posted before?  Thanks again.

Nope, I haven't been able to find anything other than several copies of that article.

I would note that Frank Metzer's High Intensity Training and several other methods are basically the same thing.  There are books, web-sites, etc. that discuss the concept of very slow training (and a group that is certified), etc.  Most seem to go overboard.



Yeah, I read some about Super Slow, it seemed much too extreme when I tried it.  I would literally collapse as I stepped off the leg press machine.

I decided to try the meogenic as I understood it on at least one lift, overhead press on a Cybex machine.  I'll let you know how it works.

Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2006, 12:56:42 PM »

If my current training regime stalls out, I will definitely be considering meogenic again.  Any good websites with more specific info than the PDF you posted before?  Thanks again.

Nope, I haven't been able to find anything other than several copies of that article.

I would note that Frank Metzer's High Intensity Training and several other methods are basically the same thing.  There are books, web-sites, etc. that discuss the concept of very slow training (and a group that is certified), etc.  Most seem to go overboard.



Yeah, I read some about Super Slow, it seemed much too extreme when I tried it.  I would literally collapse as I stepped off the leg press machine.

I decided to try the meogenic as I understood it on at least one lift, overhead press on a Cybex machine.  I'll let you know how it works.

Yep, "most seem to go overboard."

I'm doing more of a one+ count up and then four second negative, one set, 8-12 reps, a bit off the edge for failure, once a week.  I've been amazed at how well it has worked.

Let me know how the overhead press goes, especially on the once a week schedule.

I don't have it in me to do the Super Slow, I'm just not ready for pain.

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2006, 02:54:13 PM »

Stephen,

I did some power lifting in college (in class not competitive) and would like to get back into lifting, but the time constraints have been tough.  I was wondering if you could give just a simple listing of some of your weight lifting progress in various areas.  Just maybe the first workout of every month for the last 4-5 months.  I am really curious about the kind of progress you are seeing (and where you were coming from). 

I would really appreciate if you could give me something like this:

Jan- Squat - 9 reps - 200 lbs
Feb  - Squat - 11 reps - 220 lbs
Mar - Squat - 10 reps - 235 lbs
...

Jan - Bench Press - 8 reps - 175 lbs
Feb  - Bench Press - 12 reps - 195 lbs
Mar - Bench Press - 9 reps - 215 lbs
...

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Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2006, 03:07:29 PM »

Using Cybex Machines at Bally Fitness

Thigh           90 pounds/10 reps ...     Now 210 pounds 11 reps on 6/10
Adducter      90 pounds/10 reps ...            150 pounds 9 reps on 6/10 (max on machine)
Abducter    120 pounds/9 reps ...              200 pounds 8 reps (max on machine)
Rotary
Torso        80/12                                     200/8 (max on machine)
Isolation
Ab/stomach 190/10                                  230/8 (max on machine +30 pounds)
Back            160/12                                 310/9 (max on machine + 30 pounds, harder foot setting)
Sitting
Hamstring     60/10                                  165/12

The first is from an old workout sheet from when I was trying to work out 3 times a week and was doing two count/four count (a four count is about one and a half seconds the way I was doing them), the second is from my curren meogenic work-out sheet I went out to the car and got.

Hope that gives you some reference.

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2006, 04:44:19 PM »

Stephen - Reading your post about not lifting to failure reminded me that in another topic in these forums, imsovain posted a link to a paper written by Arthur De Vany, perhaps you've heard of him.  It's a long essay, but it's an excellent view on training and specifically, how to not over train. In the paper, he doesn't really prescribe a course of training exercises, but he does comment on the fact that we should not train to failure. It's counter-productive. He also likes the idea of shorter duration and higher intensity in all activities. It's an interesting read.

For weight training, he likes "supersets" - for any exercise you start with many reps of light weight, move to moderate reps with a heavier weight, then finish with a few reps of heavy weight. Then you're done with that exercise and you move on to the next using the same method. But in any exercise you never go to failure. You can read the paper here: http://www.arthurdevany.com/webstuff/images/RevisedEssay.pdf Just thought this might be of some interest to you since you're starting to notice differences in your body with respect to your weight training. Best of luck to you in all you do.
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Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #87 on: June 13, 2006, 04:57:20 PM »

Stephen,

I did some power lifting in college (in class not competitive) and would like to get back into lifting, but the time constraints have been tough.  I was wondering if you could give just a simple listing of some of your weight lifting progress in various areas.  Just maybe the first workout of every month for the last 4-5 months.  I am really curious about the kind of progress you are seeing (and where you were coming from). 

I would really appreciate if you could give me something like this:

Jan- Squat - 9 reps - 200 lbs
Feb  - Squat - 11 reps - 220 lbs
Mar - Squat - 10 reps - 235 lbs
...

Jan - Bench Press - 8 reps - 175 lbs
Feb  - Bench Press - 12 reps - 195 lbs
Mar - Bench Press - 9 reps - 215 lbs
...




I've only been doing it this way since 5/9

Starting Meo was
Thigh  210/6  7  8  9  10   210/11
Ad      140/8                   150/9
dip      12/8                     11/9 (support, so smaller is better)
Rotary 180/8     190          200/8
Back    280/12                  310/9
Ab      180/8    190           200/8
pull-up  16/8                      15/12
iso      200/10                   230/8  (a stomach machine)
hmstrng 150/9                 165/12
sldr        60/8                   90/8    (starting from scratch after a two year layoff to injury)
curl       50/8                  70/8      (starting from scratch after a two year layoff to injury)

5/4 (oops, I thought that was 5/9)
5/11
5/18
5/26
6/1
6/10

So, that is where I've gotten in six work outs.  I had to drop my weight moved when i started lifting it slower, but I've made good progress so far.

Slowest on the thighs, which get worked out a lot in my Judo work-outs, etc., fastest on the back machine.

Stephen M (Ethesis)

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #88 on: June 13, 2006, 05:04:53 PM »

Stephen - Reading your post about not lifting to failure reminded me that in another topic in these forums, imsovain posted a link to a paper written by Arthur De Vany, perhaps you've heard of him.  It's a long essay, but it's an excellent view on training and specifically, how to not over train. In the paper, he doesn't really prescribe a course of training exercises, but he does comment on the fact that we should not train to failure. It's counter-productive. He also likes the idea of shorter duration and higher intensity in all activities. It's an interesting read.

For weight training, he likes "supersets" - for any exercise you start with many reps of light weight, move to moderate reps with a heavier weight, then finish with a few reps of heavy weight. Then you're done with that exercise and you move on to the next using the same method. But in any exercise you never go to failure. You can read the paper here: http://www.arthurdevany.com/webstuff/images/RevisedEssay.pdf Just thought this might be of some interest to you since you're starting to notice differences in your body with respect to your weight training. Best of luck to you in all you do.

I'll have to look.  I'm doing one set, 8-12 reps (usually).  When I flatten out I'll have to look at supersets.

At a slightly faster lift I made slower progress/stayed even for a year or so (I've been lifting for about three years, just paid the final bill) and started at about 40-50 pounds in each area lifted.  Cycled a bit on what exercises I was doing, and in what order.  I started with a standard Nautilus style work-out of three times a week, but slowly moved to one or two work-outs a week.  Woke up and realized one day that I had made a lot of progress (it kind of crept up on me).  Before I'd always flattened out at about half the weight stack, this time I was flat, for a year or so, at close to the end of the weight stack on most machines.

Then, I switched to a true meo count (a true four second negative instead of a four count ... "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand four," instead of "one, two, three four") and once a week and I just started tracking that.

I do Judo Mondays and Wednesdays, swim twice a week (to loosen my shoulder muscles up), walk random amounts, and lift on Thursdays.  Sometimes I get delayed and lift a little later (Friday or Saturday).  I eventually hope to play judo a few more days a week as I get stronger.

I'm fifty years old. 

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Re: Ethesis, start 11/13; today -62 pounds
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2006, 06:43:18 PM »

Quote
I'll have to look.  I'm doing one set, 8-12 reps (usually).  When I flatten out I'll have to look at supersets.

At a slightly faster lift I made slower progress/stayed even for a year or so (I've been lifting for about three years, just paid the final bill) and started at about 40-50 pounds in each area lifted.  Cycled a bit on what exercises I was doing, and in what order.  I started with a standard Nautilus style work-out of three times a week, but slowly moved to one or two work-outs a week.  Woke up and realized one day that I had made a lot of progress (it kind of crept up on me).  Before I'd always flattened out at about half the weight stack, this time I was flat, for a year or so, at close to the end of the weight stack on most machines.

Then, I switched to a true meo count (a true four second negative instead of a four count ... "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand four," instead of "one, two, three four") and once a week and I just started tracking that.

I do Judo Mondays and Wednesdays, swim twice a week (to loosen my shoulder muscles up), walk random amounts, and lift on Thursdays.  Sometimes I get delayed and lift a little later (Friday or Saturday).  I eventually hope to play judo a few more days a week as I get stronger.

I'm fifty years old.

Your lifting as it stands sounds great. In the paper I referenced, Prof. De Vany also discusses something called "alactic training" (sp?) where he sometimes pauses at the end of a rep for 4 seconds then lifts again. This eliminates the muscle rebound and momentum from the next lift. But counting slowly on the negative like you are will most surely have the same effect. That probably has a LOT to do with your progress. You're really working in a more quality, high intensity fashion, thus making progress more quickly without having to spend hours in the gym. That's so great. I'm doing the supersets, but once every couple weeks I try the alactic training. It's not easy. I have to say that improvement seems to be coming more quickly than using "traditional" lifting.

Sounds like you're really becoming active in various ways. You must feel like a new person. Just keep up what you're doing and you'll always improve. It's great feeling like you have the energy to be physical again isn't it? Judo sounds like a blast.
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