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What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips

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Author Topic: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips  (Read 95856 times)

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94S10 (a.k.a. Truckman)

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2006, 01:57:15 PM »

94S10 , I do not believe anyone is saying you do not digest and absorb the calories. Seth's theory is that when your body can connect a specific flavor to a bunch of calories, it craves more of those (or more of any). The idea is that during periods of feast or famine, the feast is when the food available is good tasting and so triggers us to stock up on fat to prepare for the famine time (when the food is scarce and probably not tasty or high calorie).

Sorry. Poor wording on my part. I meant in relationship the "flavor-calorie association" and set point. Where strong flavors raise the set point and weak flavors lower it. Once the calories are beyond the palate, how does the digestive system differentiate?
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paulkimelman

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2006, 01:58:15 PM »

> Is it a bad thing to swallow with noseclips on (perhaps in the long term on your ear bones or something)?

There should not be any risk. It is just a vacuum in your Eustachian tube (between inside of ear drum and mouth) which is not relieved via your nose as usual. This is the same as when you "pop" your ears when descending in an airplane or when diving. Since you are at the same atmosphere, you should not be able to create too much pull on the ear drum.
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paulkimelman

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2006, 02:07:59 PM »

> Sorry. Poor wording on my part. I meant in relationship the "flavor-calorie association" and set point. Where strong flavors raise the set point and weak flavors lower it. Once the calories are beyond the palate, how does the digestive system differentiate?

Seth's theory is that weak flavors raise it, just less than strong flavors. Actually, in context it should be strong flavors associated to many calories raise it a lot (think french fries) and weak flavors with few calories barely raise it (think lettuce). No flavor with many calories inverts the concept in this theory (lowers) as does not eating (time between meals).

The idea of flavor-calorie timing matches the traditional physiological model of the feedback system to regulate eating. This model uses an "accumulation" rough guide from what has passed over your tongue and nose (to provide a sense of how many calories are coming down the chute) and then uses the digestive system to accurately drawn down based on actual calories consumed. Some have postulated that fake calories (e.g. NutraSweet) cause the system to detect a deficit (missing calories that were sensed by the tongue but never made it to the digestive system) and so cause us to crave more to make it up (the more complex story relates to secretion of regulating hormones). But, that aside, the notion of associating taste/smell and calories digested 20-30 minutes later is likely a normal part of our system. Presumably, unexpected calories will suppress appetite and cause a trailing edge response by regulating hormones (will have to ramp up after detected) vs. the tongue/smell model which is leading edge (ramps up in anticipation).
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chrianna

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2006, 02:22:19 PM »

man, sometimes it hurts my head to come here and read.  so much thinking going on!

but seriously, i see the noseclips as a useful tool for ingesting high quality food that doesn't necessarily appeal to my mouth, like a variation of seth's smoothie.  i would add veggies, udo's oil and protein, clamp on the clip and drink something that not only is good for me but it can drive my setpoint down further (or assist in keeping it good and low).  voila!  a twofer.
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akhdar

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2006, 03:24:45 PM »

I note that a few people on this board have said that temporary sense of smell disruption (olfaction dysfunction) has caused weight gain. I also note a British study I partially cited the other day (I cannot find the actual study). The research you cited is after prolonged loss, so this may be a factor. My guess (for what it is worth) is that if you cannot smell for short periods, you will tend towards mixed sweet (think lemonade: sweet and sour) and mixed umami (meat and fat with sauces which are sweet, sour, bitter, salty, or some combinations) as those would be familiar and most pleasant and perhaps habit will keep you eating too much. If you cannot smell for a long period, you would learn to adjust. So, because the research cited does not do a breakdown analysis based on time period, they have glommed all the data together.

As to Seth's technique, it is not clear as there has not been any information on what the test volunteers were eating when doing this, and how it differed from their prior techniques. I think Seth suggested using this for food you do not really care about, so you can save the nice taste/smell for the foods you love. If the volunteers followed this, it may explain the difference. I also note one other interesting detail. If you persistently cannot smell (temp or permanent), you cannot smell food cooking, other people's food, etc. If you just use nose clips for eating, you still enjoy all that smell before/after. Not sure how it fits in at all, but a possibly significant difference.

Possibly. Yet, I do not see how the flavours -- sweet, sour or umami should matter according to Seth's theory. In fact the more calories, the better, a la Beneke method. 100% tasteless? That should be an ideal SLD approach (though I am with you, Jenn, it would be a sad lifetime proposition). Also am not sure that the prolonged period matters at all. If it does, this assumes that the SLD mechanism arrests, after a while -- in which case we are all in trouble. Even if ansomic people eat more dessert, say, for psychological reasons, it should be flavourless and therefore lower the set point. If the body is registering "mouth feel" (especially with fats), then I question attempting this with flavourful oils. I don't know. I was ansomic for six months after my car accident and did not lose any weight. One could make the argument that my brain injury affected parts of my brain responsible for weight loss and gain, and therefore is not representative, but SLD has worked so WELL for me that this does not seem to be the case.

I am holding off on this suggestion for now. But I would be very happy to see the theory proved.

Best,

Akhdar
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Seth Roberts

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2006, 03:39:43 PM »

Quote
Doesn't eating without the pleasure of taste feel totally sad ?
  I think I would rather be 20 LBS overweight and taste my food than to consume several hundred calories per day tasteless.  What would I decide to eat in a tasteless manner, my Ice cream, Broccoli, or Chicken?  Maybe chips ?

  The way I see it is if a couple of TBS of oil per day (standard SLD)  doesn't work after a real and decent effort of several months, then it would be sad to resort to this.  We all wish to be slimmer, but if it takes not tasting much of our food.....I don't know, I think it would remove one of the basic pleasures of life.

It's just another way to get the flavorless calories that the theory behind SLD says causes weight loss. It has its pluses and minuses but it certainly does not "remove one of the basic pleasures of life" any more than drinking 2 T/day of eloo does. I think the actual causality is the opposite: after I lost weight and had total control over my weight, I felt much more open to all kinds of food and my pleasure and interest in food went way up. Lots of others have made similar comments: as they became less imprisoned by food (due to SLD), the more they enjoyed food. Which makes sense.

As for what foods you eat this way -- you have total choice. That's what's great about it. Different people, different values, different lives, different choices.

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paulkimelman

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2006, 04:02:09 PM »

Hi Akhdar. I think the problem is that little is known or understood about the exact brain side of taste. Only recently was the CD36 receptor (fat) identified, but little is known about it. Taste buds are physical processes (ion or protein triggers against nerve endings) and scents are also physical reactions on receptors. What is poorly understood is the pathway merging that makes up the processing side of receptors and taste. More to the point, no one really knows what "flavor" means in Seth's theory. We can say that sweet alone (the G protein coupled receptor called Gustducin) does not seem to trigger it, but obviously sweet mixed with other "flavor" components will; what other components are not a factor is not clear (salt may not matter, but I am not sure this is yet known). Likewise, CD36 does not seem to trigger it without other factors. We know that sweet and fat are OK (oil+sugar). It is possible that no taste bud is responsible for creating a flavor/calorie association (hence nose plugs working), but that would contradict experience with smell sense disruption (regardless of cause).

Of course, nose plugging is a physical disruption only (prevents the vapors getting to the receptors). Some sense of smell disruptions are in the neural pathways (brain) rather than physical, but allergies would be physical. However, the other factor is the transient nature of nose plugging. The fact that you smelled food and the like prior to plugging may mean that you trick your brain; whereas a loss for more than a few hours is "registered" by your brain and it uses secondary mechanisms.

Sorry to get a bit technical, but the more understanding of what really goes on, the better this will work for most people and the more likely the science community will buy into it.
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akhdar

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2006, 12:21:55 AM »

Of course, nose plugging is a physical disruption only (prevents the vapors getting to the receptors). Some sense of smell disruptions are in the neural pathways (brain) rather than physical, but allergies would be physical. However, the other factor is the transient nature of nose plugging. The fact that you smelled food and the like prior to plugging may mean that you trick your brain; whereas a loss for more than a few hours is "registered" by your brain and it uses secondary mechanisms.

Sorry to get a bit technical, but the more understanding of what really goes on, the better this will work for most people and the more likely the science community will buy into it.

No, no. Technical is good! I would love to understand the mechanism by which the SLD works and your posts come a long way towards explaining same. Your description makes a lot of sense and really helped clarify the interdependent complexities of the taste-calorie association as related to olfactory criteria. Thank you. It was actually a reassuring answer and quite logical.

Your posts are very elucidating -- it sounds as though you have an extensive technical and/or medical background? The depth of your knowledge and facility in explanation are impressive and very much appreciated.

Thank you.

Akhdar
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paulkimelman

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2006, 12:29:36 AM »

Thanks. My background is physiological psychology (aka psycho-biology) and computer science. My focus in phys/psych was on the relationship of behavior and physiology in appetite and weight control (including food "cravings"). However, that said, I did not continue with it (could not see doing 8 years for my MD/PhD), but have spent my career on computers and technology instead. So, it is always an area of interest for me to stay up with.
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Ann H

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2006, 01:08:45 AM »

I'd like to ditto Akhdar: it's great to have someone with your in-depth background and mental abilities! Please continue posting and chatting with all of us. It's much appreciated!!   Ann H
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Pinkmug

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2006, 03:30:41 AM »

hey, amigos e amigas :-) I wish this thread had come up before my birthday, I'd have spent it with a nose clip on, from 5 pm till midnight I did nothing but eat and drink (I even had a caipirinha made with excellent cachaça and tons of brown sugar).

I'm a total layperson when it comes to smell/taste etc. but I can recall someone saying weeks ago that inpatient people on intra-venous feeding for an extended time did NOT lose weight??

The other reason I'm skeptical is that I've worked in a hospital with, over the years, 100s of G-tube patients (some nasal, but mostly PEG, that is, a tube directly into the stomach through the abdomen).  They take in nothing but flavorless calories and, if their calorie count is not carefully calibrated (usually weekly) to their activity level (which can change even for the bed-ridden patients due to agitation level) they can gain considerable amounts of weight in a short time.  Once, when the dietician was on vacation and the cover wasn't doing the job properly, we had a man gain over 20 pounds in one month--all flavorless calories.  It's surprisingly mechanical, calories in, calories out.  Also, if they had an appetite before they were tubed, they keep it, begging, sneaking, and sometimes even crying for food.  If they had no appetite prior to being tubed (due to their illness or energy used recovering from illness) they often continue to have no appetite once tubed until they recover and get back to normal.  This is true of patients who have been tubed for 10 days to 21 years, in my experience.

It's from joidevivre at
http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=1263.0

Anyway, It doesn't hurt to try, and I'm willing to do that at lunch (just my hubby to give me the weird look). Starting today. I'll tell you how it goes...
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frenata

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2006, 05:16:56 AM »

Heya, Pinkmug. It was your birthday! Don't sweat it.

As for Joidevivre's comments -- she's gone, right? I can be uncivil? -- that paragraph struck me as mind-bendingly stupid. Well, this datum is meaningful, if true:

Quote
Also, if they had an appetite before they were tubed, they keep it, begging, sneaking, and sometimes even crying for food.

I'd like more details about that. It's hard to imagine anyone crying for food for 21 years, so I would like to know amount of appetite versus length of intubation.

But the part about it being "surprisingly mechanical" and people gaining weight on the tube if too much was given to them. Well, DUH. Flavorless calories aren't magically stripped of caloric value. They simply make you un-hungry, so you eat less. INTUBATED PEOPLE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT THEY EAT. The process is "surprisingly mechanical" for all of us, but those of us whose eating is controlled by our appetites will eat less if our appetite is less. Those of us who have calories shoved into our stomachs by machine don't have any options. YARRRRGH!

Yeah, you ought to hear me screaming at my car radio when it says something stupid. And it says lots of stupid things these days.

Oh, and happy birthday!
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Ann H

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2006, 05:38:09 AM »

Quote
Yeah, you ought to hear me screaming at my car radio when it says something stupid. And it says lots of stupid things these days.

Me, too--and I made my living teaching Critical Thinking and Writing in a prestigious Asian university for four years. Not much better over here. The stories my co-lecturers and I could tell... (Shaking head, just remembering.) I could consider it missionary work, I guess. It was a fantastic course, anyway, and one I wish was required worldwide--certainly in the US. (Not to imply Americans are particularly dumb--I just come from the US and know it would have been a great course there.)

Anyway, ya, the way I understand the counterpoint to joiedevivre's observation was that the particular patient/s he was referring to were actually accidentally overfed quite a lot, for quite a while. While this wouldn't have raised their set points (aka, "natural" weight), it raised their temporary weights.

We, too, won't be able to drastically "overconsume" bland or tasteless foods without getting fat--it just would fall off again quickly once we stopped the overconsumption, since it wouldn't have raised our set points, just our weight.

The noseclips is working fantastically with oil, by the way. I have rock-in-my-tummy appetite suppression again which I haven't had since attempting oils. (Supertaster, and can definitely taste oils.) Spectrum refined coconut oil is fine with the clip. I betcha we can do extra virgin whatevers now, as well.

Cheers,
Ann H
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Seth Roberts

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2006, 05:53:16 AM »

Quote
The noseclips is working fantastically with oil, by the way. I have rock-in-my-tummy appetite suppression again which I haven't had since attempting oils. (Supertaster, and can definitely taste oils.)

good news, Ann H!
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Ann H

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Re: What to do if you're not losing: Noseclips
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2006, 06:14:58 AM »

You know, Seth, there might be a link here to why some folks--often women, but not always--don't get easy, sustained weight loss on the standard formulae. I think many in this group are more sensitive to smells and tastes. The noseclip finally kills off the scent associations we get from oils.

Thinking on this: More women are supertasters than men, and pregnancy and breastfeeding greatly enhance our senses of smell and taste. I betcha in general women may be more sensitive to taste and smell. It makes sense evolutionarily. On this logic, the more sensitive individuals--including sensitive males--might face problems until they doff their sniffer, by donning a noseclip.

Ann H
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