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Print Page - Downsizing

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The Shangri-La Diet => Progress/Updates => Four Weeks or More => Topic started by: Ivy on November 18, 2008, 10:23:02 AM

Title: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 18, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
I started Shangri La on 10/23. It'll be four weeks this Thursday. Here are a few things I haven't done in the past month:


And it has required next to no effort, no willpower, and no deprivation. I can hardly believe it.

So far, I'm down ten pounds from a top weight of 244. (I had lost twenty earlier this year on Weight Watchers which felt like pushing a boulder uphill, then lost my momentum and gained back ten, so this puts me back at twenty down all told.) I can scarcely bring myself to hope after so long, though; I have been overweight since grade school and obese since college. I'm 32 now, and had nearly resigned myself to a fate of either being heavy or having to go under the knife. I heard about Shangri La through another forum I frequent, and decided it was just crazy enough to qualify for my last try before giving up and getting a Lap Band or something. But after a month, I am starting to think this might actually be it for me.

If this keeps working, I will probably keep my fingers crossed for the rest of my life.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Heidi 555 on November 18, 2008, 11:01:31 AM
Great post.  Thanks for joining us Ivy.  So happy to hear of your initial success!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 18, 2008, 11:02:57 AM
Downsizing is GREAT!
I like it a lot!  :lol:
Congratulations on your awesome beginning!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: nougat on November 18, 2008, 11:32:13 AM
well done Ivy!!!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 18, 2008, 12:17:36 PM
Thank you all so much! I'm so excited to be here and to be succeeding with this. I don't know if my first post fully conveyed how monumental all this is for me. To not eat fast food for an entire month... it was practically a daily thing for me before. I'm sure I was addicted to it, along with candy and sweets (HAD to have something sweet each day, and usually more than once). On Weight Watchers all I could manage was to ration it out and sublimate with energy bars that were lower points than a straight-up candy bar, but I was still jonesing nearly all the time. And now, I recognize that that jones was a vicious circle of my body driving up my set point in response to my food choices, making me want to keep making those choices. Why do we as a culture not wonder why overweight people have the drives they do? We punish and shame, instead of trying to understand the physiological underpinnings. I always suspected there had to be SOME reason why my thin cousin actually felt full after a small amount of food, when I could finish it all and still feel hungry. I have never been able to accept that the answer is that I just have so little self-control, and to be a normal size I would have to be uncomfortable and desperate and push that boulder uphill for the rest of my life.

I gulp every time I think or say this because it's just so much to think about, but I want to lose one hundred pounds. Losing 100 lbs would put me at about 145, still slightly on the heavy side for my height of 5'5. But I am, as Cartman on South Park says, big boned. And I really am, my frame is not at all delicate, which is fine with me-- I just want to be normal! And I'm having a party when I get it under 200! :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: nougat on November 18, 2008, 12:36:14 PM
you are right ivy... there are all kinds of complicated reasons why some people pile on the pounds and others don't - even when eating the same food.

may i suggest you make yourself a weightloss ticker??  :)  as you can see from mine i need to lose about 60lbs and i'm shorter than you - but i do have a big frame.  i don't mind that i won't be skinny -i  just want to be normal.....

its great that sld is working so well for you.  best of luck!!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 18, 2008, 01:35:22 PM
I am going to have to ante up my 2˘ and say: my twin brother and I ate the same foods, if anything he ate more than me, and we did the same stuff, and he was thin and I was not.
But on the other hand, it IS possible to lose 100lbs on SLD.
 8)
You just have to be patient.
Too many times I have seen people lose patience and disappear, while I stuck it out.  And here I am, on the brink of -100lbs in less than 2 yrs.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 18, 2008, 03:46:23 PM
I am going to have to ante up my 2˘ and say: my twin brother and I ate the same foods, if anything he ate more than me, and we did the same stuff, and he was thin and I was not.
But on the other hand, it IS possible to lose 100lbs on SLD.
 8)
You just have to be patient.
Too many times I have seen people lose patience and disappear, while I stuck it out.  And here I am, on the brink of -100lbs in less than 2 yrs.


WOW. That gives me such hope, karky. I hope I have your patience. At this moment I really feel like, if nothing else, I am eating so much more healthily and I feel SO much better (even just from having a little control over what I'm eating), so even if it goes slow I would keep doing this. I need to just toss out my scales, or keep them at my mom's house, or something. I don't need to be weighing in every day, but it's so tempting to see what the numbers say. Problem is, I fluctuate so much even from morning to evening and throughout my cycle, it's not helpful to keep that close an eye on the numbers. No doubt they need to go down, but it's a big-picture thing.

But I also realize I have a tendency to be really enthusiastic about a diet for the first few weeks or months, and then lose my momentum. SLD feels different, though, in that I don't feel like I am having to keep up a momentum. I'm just eating what I feel like eating, when I feel like eating it, and stopping when I feel full. I even had pound cake at a family gathering, and I have the occasional soda--the difference being that I had one small slice of pound cake, and the occasional soda, not the daily soda. I guess the time may come that I need to cut those things out, though.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 18, 2008, 03:59:23 PM
I believe Ethesis recommends joining OA, and I think I will do that this week. I know that I have a food addiction problem, and while SLD limits how much I can eat, I worry that when the honeymoon is over I'll start choosing junk over good food again. Until SLD, I would make a pledge to myself in the morning not to stop for fast food or gas station pick-me-up, only to break the pledge by noon.

However, I also think a big part of my addiction is insomnia. I kept a diary once to see if I could link any factors to times when I was able or not able to resist junk food, and I found that I was often using it to shore myself up after pulling all-nighters for work. When my energy flagged I would distract myself with something delicious. I feel certain it was stroking some kind of pleasure center in my brain, and now that I've read SLD I imagine it was probably that those foods had high flavor/calorie associations and were "ditto" foods, so my body craved them to keep itself going on too little sleep. Since SLD seems to be helping me sleep better as well as eat better, I have some reason to believe it can be different this time.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 18, 2008, 04:02:48 PM
as time goes on, the signals are harder to hear, but as long as you try to stop eating when you aren't hungry anymore, not when you are full/overfull you'll be OK

I weigh every day when I first wake up.  I also track it every day on fitday.com (free) some use hacker's graphs. (I don't remember the name of the site)
I weigh until I get 2 in a row the same, I have had a 5 lb weight flucuation just by stepping on and off the scale  :shock:
I remember that food and drink not only have calories (not as important) They actually have weight (Important)If you drink a 16 oz glass of water, you can't get on the scale and not expect to see a 16 oz gain, if you haven't used the bathroom.  Same with everything else that passes our lips.

Also, it is persistence that pays off, you just have to keep doing SLD, no matter what happens, no matter if you have company, no matter if you don't feel like it, no matter what.  Skipping a day now and then isn't what I mean either, it's Oh I am just too busy this week, or Oh I don't think it's working so why bother today anyway, or Oh, I have company, and it's too hard to find privacy to take my dose, so I think I'll skip it that does people in.
Remember not to beat yourself up for lapses in eating.  This is not like other plans where one mistake and it's all over.  This is a life plan, and life happens occasionally on a life plan.  8)

SLD also helps me sleep way better than before.

This is the nicest, most supportive forum on the internet.  You came to the right place.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 18, 2008, 05:12:48 PM
Which signals get harder to hear over time, karky? the appetite supression? If so, how do you deal with that? Noseclipping, et. al.?
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 18, 2008, 06:35:30 PM
AS is still there, I don't get hungry at all like I used to, but as time passes, I find it easier to eat past fullness, or ignore AS than it was when I first started.
I think I have just gotten used to the feeling of AS.

I have this bad analogy I like to spout:  8)
Say you have a smell in the house(good or bad, doesn't matter), at first it smells really strong, but after a while you can only smell it if you think about the smell.  It kind of fades into the background.  The smell is still there, your nose just isn't as sensitve to it as it was when you first walked in and the smell hit you upside the head.  :lol:

I tried noseclipping, but couldn't get past having to chew with my mouth open so I could breathe. Heidi swears by it though. 

So I just keep on doing my oil dose, no matter what, and try not to eat stuff just because it tastes good.  I am stubborn as all get out and I have my eye on the prize, which helps.
 
I also belong to the Clean-Your-Plate Club, and small plates work well for getting around that issue. 
My eyes are always bigger than my stomach, and I usually have to clean my plate, so salad plates make sure less fits on the plate.




Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 18, 2008, 07:07:20 PM
 :lol: I know all about the Clean Plate Club and Eyes-Bigger-Than-Stomach Syndrome. I'm DEFINITELY a finisher, and I always get more than I need. I suspect it has something to do with growing up in a family with four siblings, wherein a sleeve of Oreos could disappear in seconds flat. So you need to grab the largest possible number of cookies, just in case you want that many, because if you get too few and try to go back for more, they won't be there. If you don't end up wanting that many cookies, you eat them anyway since you worked so hard to get them.

That's a good idea about the small plate. It reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask. How do you guys handle well-meaning relatives who want to stuff you full of food they made for you? I've been thinking about Thanksgiving. There is no possible way I could fit a plate of Thanksgiving dinner in my belly these days, but if I get a small plate I'll have a bunch of relatives in my face asking "don't you want more X?" I can tell the social issues surrounding food are going to be harder to shake than the actual appetite and cravings have been. It wasn't entirely physiology that got me to this point, so I'll have to pay some attention to the habits and customs that I'll need to tweak to get on the right track.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 19, 2008, 06:55:22 AM
 :shock:

Today for "breakfast" I craved (and I mean CRAVED- I thought about it the whole time I was driving my kids to school) low-sodium vegetable juice mixed with an Indian spice mix my sister brought back for me when she visited her in-laws. I've been craving the vegetable juice since week 2 or so, but this latest bottle hasn't tasted right. It's the same brand and everything but maybe SLD is making me grow fatigued of familiar flavors fairly quickly? I can't really figure out an evolutionary reason why it would do that. But I have also noticed that I am way more adventurous at the grocery store than I usually am. It almost seems like, since I'm no longer that attached to what I eat, why not try some new stuff?
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 19, 2008, 07:24:41 AM
I find that I am more willing to try weird stuff I wouldn't have looked at twice before.  8)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: pilaf on November 19, 2008, 08:15:11 AM
Hi Ivy,

I am new here, too, and have ennjoyed your posts.

Speaking of the "clean plate club" (charter member myself), I have also always "saved the best for last" but now I am trying to eat the stuff I REALLY want first and am finding more food left on my plate than in the past.

I get it about the relatives noticing the smaller plate or you not eating as much as usual.  I have told people I am taking oil for the omega 3's and not mentioned the diet so I don't have the spotlight on me and my attempts at weight loss. I would probably take the under the radar approach and make up a diplomatic story" Oh, I've been nibbling all day, so I am not that hungry,"  or something like that.  Food is a big part of family/socializing and the cultural stuff will be harder to deal with that the physical hunger, I think.

 Practice saying "no" to food you are offered in low pressure situations, like the waitress asking you if you want dessert, (before T-Giving when everyone is around and Aunt Mary's famous pie is there in all its glory)  You could also compliment people on the appearance of their dish, or the acknowledge the work that went into it, or what a great cook you know they are etc. without having to taste it to make people happy. I have HUGE problems with not wanting to make other people feel bad: I have even eaten more of restaurant food than I wanted so the waitstaff/cook wouldn't feel bad about me leaving a lot on the plate, and really they could probably give a rat's behind what customer number 263 left on their plate.

pilaf
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: anacara on November 19, 2008, 09:40:34 AM
you are right ivy... there are all kinds of complicated reasons why some people pile on the pounds and others don't - even when eating the same food.

yes, but cutting carbohydrate completely will work for anyone... especially if you're already doing lovely SLD
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: nougat on November 19, 2008, 12:27:19 PM
yes - but cutting carbs is not sustainable for me.... :(  so i'm doing my best to stick to oats and wholegrain bread.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 19, 2008, 01:12:53 PM
yes - but cutting carbs is not sustainable for me.... :(  so i'm doing my best to stick to oats and wholegrain bread.

Same here. I feel like I could do it for now while my enthusiasm is high, but my number one priority is doing this in a way that I can do for life. My carb intake is pretty drastically cut just by virtue of cutting out all the junk I was eating. I love fruits of all kinds, so I don't think I could cut them out for good, but I can mostly do without bread and stuff. If I recall correctly, Seth mentioned in SLD that he thinks low carb diets work because the remaining choices are slowly-digested foods that keep you satisfied for longer naturally.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 19, 2008, 02:11:49 PM
it is a lot easier to cut out the processed carbs, like bread, pasta, etc.  and keep the whole carbs, like fruit, whole potatoes, vegetables, etc
It is the processed carbs that I do poorly on.

Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 20, 2008, 07:34:03 AM
Yep. They make me hungrier.

Weighed in today and was a pound and a half up from the last time I weighed, but I'm expecting a visitor in the next day or two. I think you guys call him TOM. So I'm not too worried about that nasty little pound and its shrimpy friend.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: xtine on November 20, 2008, 08:23:07 PM
Ivy, you're doing great! Welcome, and you are in the right place.  I'm in the category of "less to lose" but like you, have struggled and never succeeded with diets before.  On SLD I've here four months now, and have lost 12 lbs (a lot for me, that's 10% of my starting weight).  It really IS different than other diets if you have patience and stick with it.  The difference for me is the same as you mention-- which is that you're not constantly fighting powerful cravings (pushing a boulder up hill).  My appetites have changed too =---I prefer vegetables, and sometimes crave foods like radishes-- many people report this.  I now believe that our bodies drive our appetites, it's very little to do with "will power", and that SLD re-calibrates the internal triggers that set off hunger and craving.  BUT-- and this is a very big but-- I think junk food derails the process and pushes the body into a completely different state, a state that causes fatness through craving and imbalance.  So it's wonderful that you're moving away from these diet-killers!

Everyone is different, and the beauty of these forums is how open and supportive it is--- lots of different applications of the SLD theory--- the thing that's been helping me a lot lately in addition to the oil is apple cider vinegar.  It really helps with the recalibration of appetite  and digestion, I feel better inside when I take it and also my tastes move towards whole foods and vegies, sugar cravings really drop.  My weight loss since I began taking a TBSP in water 2 or 3x a day has really accelerated.

You mention insomnia-- no wonder you've been struggling with hunger.  The hormones leptin and ghrelin control hunger and one of them (I never remember which is which) is much higher without enough sleep--the one that makes you hungry.This is another thing that flax seed oil is brilliant for--- it helps you sleep.  I take my dose at night and it works like a charm.  (You have to nose-clip it or take capsules though because it has a strong smell and taste).

One last thing: some of us track our weight on the Hackers' Diet website, because it charts a moving average from daily weight fluctuations.  That way you can follow a pattern without being derailed by the daily ups and downs.  It's helped my sanity and to chart real (if slow) progress over time.

Karky is our resident genius of the very big loss, if she can do it you can too.  Good luck and keep us posted!!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on November 20, 2008, 09:06:22 PM
Ivy, while I didn't do it with SLD, I did loose over 100 pounds nearly a decade ago. And I kept most of it off. Obviously I packed a little back on. Life, don'tcha know! But as you can see, I've taken off 26 pounds on SLD in about 3 months (in reality, I think it's more like 36+....I regained and re-lost a few of those pounds a few times  :lol: )

This is doable. Good luck!

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 21, 2008, 07:47:29 AM
Thanks to everyone for the support! I am SO IMPRESSED with you guys who have lost so much weight! I really am desperate for SLD to work. My weight has been starting to cause health problems (high BP, heart flutters) so I was getting more and more serious about investigating surgical options before I found out about SLD. Now I feel like I've gotten a reprieve.

Help me, Obi Seth Roberts, you're my only hope.  :lol:
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: xtine on November 22, 2008, 07:35:35 PM
Hang in there Ivy.  Hope is the most powerful medicine when allied to a daily practice.  You'll get there if you stick with it, I know you will. 
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 23, 2008, 02:56:47 PM
I DJ'ed my little brother's wedding reception last night. I was a little worried about overindulging the delicious meal and WEDDING CAKE (love it love it love it). It felt so awesome to take a small amount of food, share about 1/3 of it with my 3yo son, and leave some on the plate (including the whole roll which would NEVER have happened before). And to then share a small piece of wedding cake with my husband, and not finish THAT, even together.

And then I probably danced most of that off after the dinner! :)

I signed up for the Hacker's Diet weight tracking tool and I think it will be very helpful for me to see the Big Picture rather than focusing on tiny day-to-day fluctuations or setting my heart on the results of a weekly weigh-in. I'm still getting used to the "trend" thing, and don't quite understand how that is calculated, but I'm sure it will all become clear with further reading.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: shovelqueen on November 23, 2008, 03:47:36 PM
Sounds like you did great handling a challenging situation!  Great going!! :D
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: nougat on November 24, 2008, 02:18:00 AM
great you had a lovely time a your brothers wedding!!!  and did it without indulging!!!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on November 24, 2008, 10:50:48 AM
Yay, Ivy!

By the way, you are so beautiful. We can all see it. Allow yourself to. Kindness and acceptance are the windows to success, Ivy. Gentle steps forward. Before you know it, you'll be looking back and wondering why it all seemed as hard and crucial and crazy as it did.

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 24, 2008, 09:40:52 PM
Oh, Outy, thank you. You are so uplifting. I really want to see that in myself, but I guess I can't expect it to all come at once.

Still, every day I have a little more confidence that this is the real thing, and I really might be able to take this all the way. I heard on the radio today that dark chocolate is supposed to be really good for heart health, and that half a bar a week is the magic amount that delivers the most benefit. In the past, that would have been an opportunity to beat myself up for 1) preferring heart-unhealthy milk chocolate, and 2) not being able to stick to a limit like half a bar a week, even with my less favored type of chocolate. This time, it was an opportunity to head to Trader Joe's for the highest percentage dark chocolate I could find, with the knowledge that I could eat a square a day, or if I occasionally wanted a little more it would be okay.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on November 25, 2008, 07:03:33 AM
Ivy, cocoa also does the trick. And you can make that with skim milk and the sweetener of your choice. Very yummy, especially in winter. I get on kicks where I sweeten it with various SF Torani syrup flavors for variety. http://www.torani.com/
You can get a good selection at Smart and Final or Cost Plus. For a milk chocolate lover, it seems like a wonderful solution.

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: nougat on November 25, 2008, 10:06:43 AM
so how much cocoa would give the best effects?

i love milk choc tho i'm not eating it at the mo.  dark choc is not my fave and after last time i'm afraid to eat it !!! :?

and ivy you do have a lovely face!! :)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on November 25, 2008, 10:26:36 AM
so how much cocoa would give the best effects?


I've heard varying wisdom on this. The nice thing about cocoa is that it has most of the flavanoids, antioxidants and micronutrients but virtually no fat. The reason experts caution against too much chocolate is that it's very high in fat and usually laced with sugar. Personally, I still eat it, almost every day. But to increase the healthy benefits without increasing my waist size, I also use good cocoa. BTW, the darker the cocoa, the better and richer the nutrients. A good cup of cocoa every day or so is a decent amount. I generally use a heaping tbsp per cup.

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 25, 2008, 01:06:23 PM
I didn't know you could use plain cocoa! However, the study I heard about mentioned that milk interfered with the absorption of the polyphenols in the chocolate. I wonder if it's the calcium, or something else in the milk that interferes? I'm not married to cow's milk, none of us drink much of it at all. But most of the milk substitutes we sometimes buy (hemp, almond, sometimes rice) are calcium fortified.

I heard it from Dr. Ronald Hoffman, who has a weekday radio show on WOR in NY that we pick up on our AM talk station here in NC. He seems to be pretty on the ball most of the time (at least to my layperson's ear). I just poked around to see what I could find and here's an article about it:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080923104408.htm

But it doesn't say anything about whether it's the calcium in the milk or something more inherent to the milk itself that messes with the absorption.  :?

Dang. Science is hard!  :lol:
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 25, 2008, 01:07:58 PM
and ivy you do have a lovely face!! :)

Aw, shucks. You guys are all too sweet. :) Thank you!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 29, 2008, 11:31:19 PM
So I guess I'm coming up on six weeks this Thursday. As of Thanksgiving morning I was about 13 lbs down. Not too shabby for five weeks. I haven't weighed in since I've been at my parents' house, but I won't be surprised if I've picked up a pound or two by the time I get back home tomorrow, since it has been a non-stop food orgy that I have only mostly avoided. Really, though, I'm satisfied with how I've done this holiday. I didn't take a "diet vacation" as I would have in times past- I went ahead and took the oil each morning as I have been. So I didn't eat as much as I would normally have, but I still ate enough to get stuffed SLD style.

However, I think the honeymoon may be over. I kind of understand why people tend to fall off the wagon after a couple of months. For one thing, I am feeling somewhat sluggish, digestion-wise. Actually, that's an understatement- I'm feeling REALLY sluggish, digestion-wise. I would have assumed that since I'm eating many, many more veggies and much less junk than I used to, that my digestion would be better, not worse. I also have to admit that I still have a moment when I take the oil, wherein I think "OMG, what in the hell am I doing drinking a quarter cup of oil?! This is crazy!" I may have been a junk food junkie before, but that was just Mr. Hyde to my granola mom Dr. Jekyll. And my granola mom side frequently avoided adding a quarter cup of oil to an entire batch of muffins by using applesauce instead. Now, I'm drinking that, all by myself, every single day. Nearly five hundred calories of pure fat. It's breathtaking sometimes. I'd love to cut down on the amount, but going by the weight in pounds x2 thing, I need to be taking this much oil.

Even so, I'm determined to work it out with SLD. Digestion and crazy oil drinking panic aside, this is the only time I have felt like I had even partial control over my appetite. And I won't be taking 4T of oil forever, right? I'll cut it down as I lose, I assume.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on November 30, 2008, 01:39:59 AM
Ivy, I think there's a max recommendation of 400 SLD calories per day. And even that's an awful lot of oil. You may want to experiment with less oil. If you're worried about loosing AS, you can compensate by using other SLD methods like CFF, NCing, crazy spicing, etc.

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 30, 2008, 04:58:14 AM
Quote
Even so, I'm determined to work it out with SLD. Digestion and crazy oil drinking panic aside, this is the only time I have felt like I had even partial control over my appetite. And I won't be taking 4T of oil forever, right? I'll cut it down as I lose, I assume.

I would, as you lose, just recalculate the amount of calories you need and adjust  :lol:
I don't think it is the fat in our diets that has made us fat, I think it is the processed carbs like white flour, the high fructose corn syrup in everything, and also-
think about the chicken that has been given drugs to make the breast bigger.  The cows that have been given drugs to make them grow bigger and fatter fast, and give more milk, ect.  All of those drugs must be excreted somewhere.  Like in the eggs we buy, the milk we give our kids, the manure that gets spread on vegetable fields as fertilizer. 
-end rant

Ivy, you are doing great.  Don't forget, that the reason you may be feeling a bit sluggish is this: less input=less output.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 30, 2008, 08:25:23 AM
Outy, I'm going by the 4T upper limit, which I guess makes about 480 calories of oil, right? I was thinking of scaling back to 3T which is still 360 calories, but I have such good AS at this level. It just goes against that low-fat mantra that has been drilled into me forever, that even I don't really believe. I agree with you, karky, which is why I have been trying to make sure the small amount I do eat now is high-quality organic food. I've always fed that to my kids, really- it has been what I eat in the car on the way somewhere that has been making me fat. Candy, fast food, and the occasional Slim-Fast (LOL) shake.

CFF is calorie-free flavors, right? I don't remember reading about that in the book but I've seen it around here. How does that work? I have been crazy spicing when I can (I made Spanish rice with a bunch of spices including cinnamon in it the other day, and it was downright yummy) but I haven't tried doing crazy spiced smoothies. I may have to start doing that for brunch/lunch/first meal I can tolerate. And dang, I meant to pick up a pair of noseclips at the store yesterday but I forgot.

Regarding input/output... I don't so much mind the decreased output as the... difficulty... of outputting. Trying to stay out of the TMI-zone. :lol:
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on November 30, 2008, 10:10:00 AM
Ivy, here is the post where they first started talking about Calorie Free Flavors.  I think... :lol:

New Application of Theory -- Extinguishing Conditioned Reinforcer (flavor)
http://boards.sethroberts.net/index.php?topic=4361.0
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 30, 2008, 10:29:03 AM
Okay.. so the idea is to pair a CFF with meals, and also drink that same CFF between meals to break the calorie-flavor association. I'm going to try this. I do find that if I drink unsweetened tea with a meal that I am not hungry nearly as fast afterwards (I often drink unsweetened tea between meals but sometimes splurge on the sweet tea with a meal).
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on November 30, 2008, 02:06:15 PM
Ivy, cocoa redux. I use coconut milk when making mochas. I don't know if you like coffee. To use the amount of coconut milk you'd need to make a decent cup of cocoa may be counterproductive in the calorie area. But here's my mocha recipe in case you're interested:

* 1 12 cup pot of coffee (I use decaf....and the GOOD stuff. Either one of the specialty coffees I mail order like Gevalia or Boca Java or I get the freshly roasted stuff from whole foods, ground fine. If you plan to drink it straight, you can make the coffee weak. If you're going serve over ice, you may want to brew it a bit stronger.)
*6-12 heaping spoonfuls of cocoa (this is a matter of preference)
*1 tsp vanilla
*1-2 cans coconut milk (I use the reduced fat kind sold at Trader Joe's. And again, this is a preference thing. I'm fine with 1 can, but if you like it creamy, you'd add 2.)
*Sweeten to taste with sweetener of choice (I tend to use stevia and my preferred ratio is about 1.5 standard packets per cup.)

I mix this all in a recycled water bottle. It's awesome hot or cold. I usually chill it and serve over ice, but I almost always have a hot cup in the meantime. This is NOT a totally calorie free drink, obviously. But it works out to be around 50 calories a cup, give or take. Quite reasonable. Plus you're getting the health benefits of the chocolate, the coffee and the coconut. A total win/win!

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: VeganKitten on November 30, 2008, 05:14:04 PM
OMG Outy, I am SO going to try that!

I made a great vegan pumpkin pie for T-Day, the secret ingredient was full-fat coconut milk  :D
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on November 30, 2008, 06:55:23 PM
Coconuts in general are miraculous little concoctions. I use the milk, the oil and the butter for many things. Another hint: substitute coconut oil in recipes that call for shortening (like Crisco).  It's one of the secrets to my oatmeal cookies....which no one has ever tasted without exclaiming, "OHMIGOD, these are the best oat meal cookies I've ever tasted!" Oh, and the meat is most yummy as well.

I'm sure your pumpkin pie rocked.

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on November 30, 2008, 08:57:46 PM
I am making that mocha tomorrow!! I don't need it to be calorie-free (dark chocolate obviously isn't, lol) but I did want to avoid using dairy since the recent studies indicated that it interrupted absorption of the good stuff in the chocolate.

And this is the first I've heard of coconut oil/milk being beneficial, though I'm not surprised.

I couldn't wait for the morning to step on the scale, though I almost always weigh at least 2-3lb more in the evening than I do in the morning. Who knows why, I guess water retention and having eaten and such. I am about 1.5 up from my last weigh-in, but that was naked in the morning, so I'm actually pretty thrilled with that. I know it's really not the big picture, but I do really want to see that number keep going down.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on December 05, 2008, 07:11:58 AM
I seem to be stuck, hovering up and down around 231-234 or so, which is between 10 and 13lbs down from my start date. My ticker reflects the lowest weight I've seen; I can't bring myself to adjust it upwards. The floor and ceiling change by tiny increments but I can't seem to get over the 230lb hump. I'm not terribly surprised, and I'm trying not to worry or get impatient, because this is a weight at which I was stable for a long time. I've read in my perusings on this forum that people tend to get stuck at their old set points, so I'm just hanging in there. The good news is that Thanksgiving didn't seem to change anything.

Also, I went for a blood draw and follow-up appointment with my healthcare provider yesterday, and by their scales I was down 16 lbs from my last appointment. So maybe my scales just suck. :)

In any case, I have control, and that's a great feeling, no matter what the weight is doing. Even my bad days are better than my best days were, pre-SLD. I wish I were still seeing amazing things on the scales BUT I anticipated the initial fast losses to slow down and I've been prepared for plateaus since the start.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: shovelqueen on December 05, 2008, 07:44:06 AM
Good attitude, Ivy - keep the faith, and it will move again, guaranteed! :D
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on December 05, 2008, 07:48:04 AM
Thanks, shovelqueen! :)

I also find myself slipping back into bad sleeping habits, so I would probably do better (not just in weight loss but energy level and general wellbeing) if I got back into the good pattern I had the first month I was on SLD.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on December 05, 2008, 08:32:35 AM
persistance is the key here
and patience.
you have to keep sticking it out.
like me, and you can see what has happened to me since I have been hanging around these here parts... 8)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: nougat on December 06, 2008, 01:56:58 AM
hang on in there ivy - hopefully you will soon see the scales go down again.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on December 13, 2008, 11:12:37 AM
FINALLY!

I cracked it! 229.4! I'm sure I'll hover up and down over that awful, evil number for a few weeks yet but I can start waving goodbye to 230 now.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: m.c. on December 13, 2008, 12:03:36 PM
YEA!!!!!!! :P
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on December 13, 2008, 03:50:02 PM
Way to go, Ivy. Keep your sights set forward.

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on December 14, 2008, 06:30:44 AM
Thanks, guys. :)

I told my husband, although plateaus suck, this is the easiest "diet" to plateau on. There's no temptation to give up and take my toys home, because I'm already basically eating what I feel like eating, when I feel like eating it, and there are other benefits to SLD besides weight loss.

In other words, if I let go of the boulder it just sits there, rather than rolling all the way back down the hill. :)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: m.c. on December 14, 2008, 06:53:11 AM
Great analogy Ivy! I love that mental image of the boulder. :)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Heidi 555 on December 14, 2008, 07:49:02 AM
Congratulations Ivy!  I love that boulder analogy, too.  It's one that will stay with me.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: nougat on December 14, 2008, 11:25:28 PM
well done ivy!!!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on January 17, 2009, 12:15:47 PM
Checking in...

I didn't have a lot to update for awhile there as I kept hovering around 230 for so long. It's moving again now (I hope) and I'm down to 225. I suppose considering I started in mid-October and it's now mid-January, 20 lbs is pretty good for 3 months. Except that most of it came off in the first month or so. :)

I'm still extremely hopeful. It doesn't have to go fast (although I WOULD LOVE it if it would). It just has to go.

Hear that, fat? YOU HAVE TO GO. :)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: shovelqueen on January 17, 2009, 12:47:35 PM
20 lbs in 3 months is awesome, Ivy!!  Your body took a bit of time to adjust, and it sounds like it's now ready to move on (down :D).  That has been the pattern for lots of us, and if you just keep up the SLD, things eventually do move. 

You must be feeling different with 20 lbs gone.  Clothes a little baggy?  Face thinner?  Bones starting to get closer to the surface?  Slightly deflated feeling in the belly?  All good stuff!! 8) :D
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on January 17, 2009, 04:18:42 PM
I've been hitching up my pants for a long time, and in the past week or so they've started coming dangerously close to falling down. I probably need to get a belt. Or a few new pairs of pants, but I'd much rather buy them in my goal size than in a transitional size. There are enough sizes between my goal size and my starting size that I will probably have to buy new clothes more than once along the way. :)

My husband says that it must be going well if I'm complaining about staying the same weight from before Thanksgiving to after New Year's. 8)
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Outrayjust on January 17, 2009, 04:45:46 PM
Ivy! Good to hear from you again. 20 pounds in three months is quite impressive. And it's very common to have a nice run at loosing and hit a plateau. It's cyclical. So keep with it! You'll have another whoosh before you know it!

~Outy
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Oslo on January 17, 2009, 11:26:09 PM
agreed!
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on March 05, 2011, 10:49:41 AM
Hello SLD folks. I had a lot of success with SLD two years ago, but the effect seemed to "wear off." I'm ready to try it again and see if I can't tackle the issues I had. I'd love to get some feedback on my troubleshooting ideas.

1: Taking the oil started to make me want to retch every single morning, and it was followed with about an hour or two of just unpleasantness. That was really fine with me and I was willing to put up with it as long as I was losing weight. When I stopped losing weight and my appetite came back full force, it wasn't such a great trade-off, though.

2: That brings me to the big question: why did my appetite come back? I think what happened is that I started to associate "morning breath" with the calories in the oil and also probably the smell of breakfast that I was cooking for other people. I didn't really put that together until after I had been off the diet for several months. I'm planning to buy a set of noseclips this time (I didn't do any noseclipping last time, just flavorless calories once a day which worked for awhile) and drink Stephen/Ethesis's morning protein shake at about 10am, keep the noseclips on for an hour, and then go about my day.

Any other ideas? It's been two years since I gave up and I have gained back everything I lost. SLD was such a relief to me while it worked- I really want to find a way to make it work longer-term this time.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on March 05, 2011, 12:49:03 PM
weight > set point = great AS
set point > weight = hunger

if your weight is below your set point, then you will feel hunger, your body does not want you to lose weight, so it will make you hungry again, until your set point drops back below your weight again.
you have to stick it out until your set point drops again, then AS will return.
Possibly this is why you thought it stopped working.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: shovelqueen on March 05, 2011, 03:57:56 PM
I mix my oil with whipping cream to reduce the Yuck factor.  It's really much easier to take that way.  You just need to reduce the oil amount by the cals in the WC.  I use 1 tbsp oil (120 cals) and 1 tbsp WC (50 cals) for a total of 170 cals or so.  Shake them up until they homogenize, then drink while holding your breath or NC'ing.  No oily mouthfeel or aftertaste. 
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on March 08, 2011, 10:22:08 PM
weight > set point = great AS
set point > weight = hunger

if your weight is below your set point, then you will feel hunger, your body does not want you to lose weight, so it will make you hungry again, until your set point drops back below your weight again.
you have to stick it out until your set point drops again, then AS will return.
Possibly this is why you thought it stopped working.


Does one typically need to stick it out for a period of months to get the AS back? I kept taking the oil for a solid two months after my appetite returned. After that amount of time, it didn't seem like it was going to come back, and making myself sick daily for no AS benefit was not working. Later on, I thought about the "morning breath" flavor connection and it was kind of an AHA! moment for me. I saw on here where Ethesis says it happened to him when he was taking oil in the middle of the night.

Whipping cream is a good idea SQ, thanks! I hope a mix-in agent plus the judicious use of noseclips will make the difference for me this time.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on March 09, 2011, 02:18:03 PM
maybe it is the morning breath.  this plan seems to work very differently for everyone.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on March 09, 2011, 02:23:53 PM
Yeah, it's kind of mysterious- and some of us seem to need to keep switching things up to keep it working.

I need to lose that ticker in my sig, it's depressing.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: Ivy on May 05, 2011, 11:29:00 PM
Me again...

So I tried back in March and didn't have much success. I've joined a roller derby team and am exercising strenuously many times per week, so I chalked it up to all the extra activity. Anyway, I was taking oil and whipping cream with noseclips, and it wasn't doing anything at all. After a couple weeks I  had gained a few pounds, so I got frustrated and quit again.

Now, I still believe this diet works. It worked for me at one time, and the effect was amazing. I desperately want to get that effect back. So I've been thinking about it a lot and I'm going to regroup and try again. I may lose my steam but I keep coming back.  ;D

Here are the things I've been thinking:

1) Since I started exercising in January, I had lost a little weight before I tried SLD again in March. I think it's likely that my setpoint hadn't caught up with me and I might have seen some progress had I stuck with it for longer.

2) Having said that, I do think that I began to associate my own mouth-taste with the oil, the first time back in the day. I saw some threads on here about "supertasters," took the BBC test and studied my tongue, and it turns out I am one. D'oh!

3) With 2) in mind, I think I need to just spend more time in noseclips for this to work for me. This most recent time I was only noseclipping for when I took the oil/whipping cream, and then I was taking them off once I rinsed.

4) In conclusion: what I plan to try is just wearing noseclips for a 2 hour window daily, with a dose in the middle. And waiting longer to see if it works.

Now I just need to decide what to take. Since I'll be noseclipping, I could take coconut and/or flax since I like the health benefits of them... but should I stick with oils that are flavorless for normal tasters to offset my supertasting? Or will the noseclips take care of that?

Thanks for being patient with me as I return time after time.  ;D
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: la-di-da on May 07, 2011, 08:16:48 AM
Hi Ivy- I'm restarting, too. It's been about three weeks and although I have decent AS, the weight hasn't really come off yet- at least not like I want it to. The two years I was on the diet, I was able to maintain a tolerable weight- not as low as I wanted it to be, but within a normal range.

There were times in that two year period where I would miss days, kind of screw up and it always took a while to get back on track. I seem to be very sensitive to any changes in the routine- how much oil I take, when I take it, switching oils- that kind of thing. It's taking a really long time with this go, but like you, I have confidence it will kick in at some point.

I hope you iron out the glitches and find a routine you can stick with. I was going to make a change this weekend, but I've seen some legit weight loss, I think, and I don't want to mess with things. Good luck--
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: ponytale on June 11, 2011, 04:24:07 AM
That's good to know - if th set point is higher than weight, I'll be hungry.   Very interesting.  I wondered why after about a week and a half I would be hungry/ravenous.  Now I know what I have to do - I think.   Just hang in there in other words, to lower my set point.  Is this correct Narky?  I certainly don't want to gain while I'm waiting on set point.
Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: karky on June 11, 2011, 10:31:25 AM
when your set point drops below your weight, your body will want you to lose weight to match your set point.

when your weight drops below your set point, your body will want you to gain weight to match your set point, and it does this by making you hungry.
if you can stick it out, your body will give up, and your set point will drop below your weight and you won't be hungry.

Title: Re: Downsizing
Post by: tinka on June 16, 2011, 06:40:54 PM
Ivy, your story sounds similar to mine.  SLD worked GREAT first time around - 22 lbs melted off effortlessly (I was about 22 lbs above my usual set point).  Then I tried the diet again and the oil had no effect.  I gave it many many weeks.  I gave up.  This time I'm using a different oil - flaxseed, noseclipped, and I have pretty good AS.  Sometimes I am hungry, but I don't feel like I have to eat.  I don't know if I'd say the AS is rock solid like it was the first time, but good enough for now.  So maybe when you go to CO or flaxseed, SLD will work better for you.  But the other reason it might possibly be working better for me this time is my starting point was a little higher.  I'm about to hit what I believe is my set point, so we'll see how that goes.  I've got another 4 lbs or so before I hit it.