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The Shangri-La Diet => General => Topic started by: Friarjohn on May 22, 2006, 05:53:02 PM

Title: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 22, 2006, 05:53:02 PM
I haven't started SLD yet. I'm about 2/3rds through the book. In all of the examples/testimonials I've read I've only seen people starting out around 250-275. I understand the max calorie intake for oil or SW is 400 calories per day, regardless of weight. I'll admit I'm skeptical but I'm willing to give it a try. Seems like some sort of wacky placebo effect or something. I picked up a bottle of ELOO last night at the grocery store.

Anyway, I'm bouncing between 340 and 350 at 5'9" (with a host of related health issues). Is there anything I should be aware of or cautious about? Any caveats, stories or advise beyond the book? I've been skimming through these forums and haven't noticed anything specifically related to someone my size. I would be ecstatic to lose around 100 pounds (best way to make my motorcycle go faster  :D).

TIA,

John
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Denise on May 22, 2006, 08:29:51 PM
In my opinion, don't do sugar, at all.  Do oil.

I can't help but think this would work great for you, since your set point is so high.  And lowering it is part of this.  (This what, diet?  No, theory?  Um, thingie?  It's officially a thingie.  But saying that Seth's thingie made me lose weight would sound obscene.)

Anyways, give it a shot and let us know.  It sure can't hurt.  You can play around with the amount of oil to see what works.  5'8, female, 213 starting weight, 2T once a day worked great.  You may need more as a percentage of your calories.  You could start out small and just up it until you feel it.  Believe me, you'll know it when you feel it.

It's totally not placebo.  You can't placebo this feeling.  If you could, everyone would be thin by placebo.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 22, 2006, 08:53:24 PM
I've already decided against the SW. I'm slightly reactive hypoglycemic (which is odd, I should be hyperglycemic, diabetic, like everyone else in my family).  If I ate again right after the fast, an hour after the SW, I might not crash as hard. My blood sugar usually hits rock bottom an hour-and-a-half after a large dose of sugar with no protein or complex carbs.

Yeah, let's steer clear of Seth's thingey. Though I do have trouble calling it a diet. Oh well, as long as it works.

I'm thinking of starting out with 200 calories first thing in the morning since I'm usually on the computer for an hour in the morning before I have my coffee, and another 200 calories just before bed. That will save me having to deal with taking oil during the day and the inevitable explanations to my nosy coworkers.

Thanks,

John
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Denise on May 22, 2006, 09:00:08 PM
No matter what happens, John, please promise us that you will come here and post about it.  I've felt this feeling before, with low-carbing, but it was sacrifice and people staring at me for going bunless.  I really, truly, from my heart, want everyone to feel this control, so it would help to share your experiences, good or bad, helpful tweaks, etc.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Will on May 22, 2006, 10:29:31 PM
John, do you typically eat a lot of calories everyday?  Do you typically eat the ditto foods that Seth mentions?   Do you cook much?  Are you an emotional or compulsive eater?  The answers to these questions can be of some help in analyzing how well the diet will work for you. 

Best of luck John.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 22, 2006, 11:05:04 PM
Well, I tried my first water and oil intake. Icky. I used cold, filtered water from a bottle in the fridge. Made the oil coagulate. I choked it down anyway. Quite a bit of residue on my lips. Not a very auspicious beginning. I did about 1.5 tbsp (180cal) in a half-glass of water, using the guidelines I found on this site. I think I'll be better off slamming a shot of room-temperature oil with a cold water chaser.

Will, if anything I'm a bored eater. The office is particularly dangerous with all the cookies and donuts and such. In the past year I've almost completely cut out softdrinks (I only use 7up for mixed drinks on the rare occasion I indulge in an adult beverage). I've decaffeinated and cut out a lot of salt (Drs. orders).  I've cut my mochas down from 7-10 a week to 2-3. I've cut out almost all fried foods. I used to eat nothing but fast food. I've started cooking dinners at home and eating breakfast at home. I'm eating more salads and fruit. I've probably gone from 3 or 4 thousand calories a day to 2-2.5 thousand (I'd like to cut that in half again). One thing that helped was going to the fast food restaurant web sites and looking at their nutritional info. Holy...!!! Even with these changes, I'm still not losing much weight, and I blame that mostly on lack of exercise.

Mostly I started making these changes to save money, but it doesn't hurt that it's helping my health. I do have a little more energy but my body just doesn't want to cooperate. I've tried Atkins, I've tried carb counting, calorie counting, though I've stayed away from the vast majority of fad diets. Just a few weeks ago I was researching hoodia and decided against. I was also thinking about trying Nutrisystems. I'm wary of everything out there but there is just an overwhelming amount of positive feedback for SLD so what the heck. It's not going to make things worse, right?  :)

Thanks,

John
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Denise on May 23, 2006, 12:05:13 AM
Quote
It's not going to make things worse, right?
Not only that, it's free so why not?

Quote
One thing that helped was going to the fast food restaurant web sites and looking at their nutritional info. Holy...!!!
I don't believe their calorie counts.  They must sponge off all the oil before testing, because some of the fast food I have is dripping in oil and they say 500 calories?  Not.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: catwoman on May 23, 2006, 03:04:24 AM
From reading your trials at so many different approaches to weight loss, it appears your problem really is "set point" and with that understood, this plan should really be beneficial for you.  I use grapeseed in a squirt bottle-straight to the back of the throat and chase with cold water.  Very little taste.

Yes, John, do keep us posted.  I wish you well...................hang in there.  It really works.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 23, 2006, 06:33:25 AM
How do you regulate the amount with a squirt bottle?

I did a shot (about 1.5 tbsp) this morning with a water chaser. It was like a shot of snot, but it was WAY better than last night. Both times I felt (still feel as I write this) suddenly very hungry after the oil. Ideally that will change soon.

Denise, that's the thing about the fast food nutrition charts, even assuming they're correct, they're horrible. I fully believe they're fudging the numbers, but still, it's pretty bad. I'm pretty much down to salads from Wendy's with unsweetened ice tea. I know I should be taking my lunch.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Will Ware on May 23, 2006, 08:21:00 AM
How do you regulate the amount with a squirt bottle?

I'm also curious about this. I like the idea of anything that diminishes the ickyness factor. I have been doing pretty well with an ounce of canola, poured as far back in my mouth as I can manage, followed by a cup or half-cup of water. No detectable taste, but I still get that unpleasant mouth feel.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 23, 2006, 08:51:39 AM
Brief update: I waited an hour after taking the oil this morning. During that hour my stomach felt a little queezey but when that passed I was starving. After the fast I had a bagel and coffee. My stomach is confused. It bounces moment to moment between mild hunger and serious peckishness. I wouldn't be surprised if I was one of those people for whom it takes weeks for the appetite supression to kick in. I brought a banana and yogurt in to the office for a snack but I'm trying to wait and see what my stomach will do.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: kindall on May 23, 2006, 09:42:58 AM
You may be having the same difficulty I have, Friarjohn. My stomach (or brain, or something) sometimes has trouble distinguishing between upset and hunger, such that when I eat something that disagrees with me for whatever reason, I feel hungry again shortly afterward. I find that, if a sudden hunger pang strikes, if I can distract myself for a few minutes often it goes away... so maybe it wasn't really hunger, maybe it was just my stomach complaining about something. Since I started paying closer attention to my stomach, I've noticed a distinct difference in "feel" between (say) a post-heavy-carb pang and real hunger. The real thing feels "deeper" somehow. The others feel urgent, but more superficial. It's hard to explain, especially because you can make them both go away (temporarily) by eating, but maybe you'll notice the difference too. If the distraction trick doesn't work, I find a small amount of something satiating often works to quell the fake pangs without eating a whole meal. (I sometimes use a spoonful of peanut butter -- since it has fat, carbs, and protein it is fairly satisfying in this small amount.)

Also, if you're used to eating big meals, you're probably going to feel empty for a while until your stomach adjusts to smaller meals. This is not a SLD thing; for me it applies any time I'm trying to eat less. You could wait it out, but I find that occasional small but calorie-dense snacks (a handful of nuts, an ounce of cheese) help manage it in the short term. You'd phase out the snacks out once your stomach shrinks up a bit and the appetite reduction effect of the SLD kicks in. Until it does, though, you shouldn't necessarily be trying to "force" things by eating fewer calories, IMHO. You'll naturally do that if/when the SLD starts working for you. So eat when you're hungry, and if you want to try to get used to smalller meals, then try a larger number of small meals/snacks instead of a few big meals.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 23, 2006, 09:49:19 AM
Usually I use the distraction technique on weekend mornings to put off eating anything until my stomach insists. I stay distracted working my second job at home. During the week is tougher just because of the routine. My body expects certain things at certain times of the day. I do realize there will be an adjustment phase. After I typed my last reply I realized that if I follow the book to the letter, I probably shouldn't deprive myself - I should let the process take its natural course.

So I ate the banana.   :D
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: jc on May 23, 2006, 10:23:11 AM
In addition to the oil, have you tried adding new flavors? I keep several spice mixes in my drawer at the office and just sprinkle them on in various mixtures to try new flavors. It didnīt draw much attention from coworkers either.

I am thinking of getting some spices for sweet things, like cinnamon, vanilla, coconut etc...you can add it to coffee or desserts or fruits and even encourage others to experiment with you.

Please keep us posted how you are doing. Hope you see some results soon, but it took me more than a week to see a change on my scale.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: CVgirl on May 23, 2006, 10:31:10 AM
Have you tried mixing it with water and drinking with a straw aimed at the back of your mouth?
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: chronicler on May 23, 2006, 08:03:24 PM
John, your wieght is about the same in ratio to my husband's when he started this program/lifechage. He is doing oil. I am doing water. He feels the need to do larger amounts of oil than just the tablespoon. With so much to lose, he needs the boost. He has three Tablesppons twice a day. He has been encountering some nausea, but still says it is worth it as he has no appetite and is able to control his intake much easier. He has been doing this for three weeks and has already notched his belt down a hole.

Keep trying, and experiment with a bit more oil is my best advice. That may assist in the hungry feeling after an hour.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 23, 2006, 08:05:41 PM
In addition to the oil, have you tried adding new flavors? I keep several spice mixes in my drawer at the office and just sprinkle them on in various mixtures to try new flavors. It didnīt draw much attention from coworkers either.

I just started. I'll try working the other techniques into my routines as I go.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 23, 2006, 08:14:07 PM
John, your wieght is about the same in ratio to my husband's when he started this program/lifechage. He is doing oil. I am doing water. He feels the need to do larger amounts of oil than just the tablespoon. With so much to lose, he needs the boost. He has three Tablesppons twice a day. He has been encountering some nausea, but still says it is worth it as he has no appetite and is able to control his intake much easier. He has been doing this for three weeks and has already notched his belt down a hole.

Keep trying, and experiment with a bit more oil is my best advice. That may assist in the hungry feeling after an hour.

What are the caveats for going over 400 calories per day, according to Seth? I don't recall anything specific. Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler?

If anything I was hungrier all morning. But I managed to eat a smaller lunch than usual. Also I was over at my buddy's house returning his lawnmower and his wife had picked up some chicken. I hadn't had dinner yet so I dived in. Normally I could polish off half a chicken without even thinking. It was all I could do to eat two pieces (thighs). My appetite was down but I also felt a little bloated pretty quickly. I felt the same way this morning after breakfast (well, technically the oil broke my fast, but I'm referring to the bagel an hour later).

Heck, maybe it is working already.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: JPR on May 23, 2006, 08:32:33 PM
How do you regulate the amount with a squirt bottle?

I'm also curious about this. I like the idea of anything that diminishes the ickyness factor. I have been doing pretty well with an ounce of canola, poured as far back in my mouth as I can manage, followed by a cup or half-cup of water. No detectable taste, but I still get that unpleasant mouth feel.

I have found that mixing a tablespoon of ELOO with about 3 to 4 ounces of warm water makes it much more palatable for me. I chug it down in one gulp and chase it with another 2 to 3 ounces of warm water.

Been on the SLD for about 2 weeks down 10 lbs. 60 to go. This is working for me and I am an SLD evangelist among my friends, family, and clients.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 23, 2006, 08:36:53 PM
The shot worked pretty well this morning, but I'm far from done experimenting. And isn't (self) experimenting what Seth is all about? It cracks me up reading through these forums how some people are whining about it not working but they're not willing to try it from a different angle.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: chronicler on May 23, 2006, 10:14:35 PM
John, Seth says to stay below the 480 threshhold. However, in my opinion, when you have so much to lose, the 480 is a moving target. The process by hwich you gained all the weight was far and above the 480 so to take a bit extra at your wieght might be the key. The ratio for my 6'4" 400+ lbs husband is going well.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: catwoman on May 24, 2006, 03:54:17 PM
The squirt bottle theory.  I marked my on the outside of the soft plastic bottle - in TBSP" markings............and quite rapidly you learn how hard and long to squeeze the bottle to achive your optimal dose.  Then a chaser of H2O.  I drink much, much water so ALWAYS have a bottle within reach.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Friarjohn on May 24, 2006, 07:20:44 PM
Something's happening...

It's not that my appetite is going down necessarily, it's that after I eat about 1/3-1/2 what I'm used to, I start feeling bloated and I'm "discouraged" from eating any more. Believe me I WANT to eat more but I already feel full. This afternoon I started feeling snackish so I reached for a half-handful of lightly salted cashews. That was plenty.

This is frightening(ly effective). It's certainly enough to keep me going since I'm incredibly curious what's going to happen next!
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Denise on May 24, 2006, 09:03:24 PM
Shangri-La, John.

The whole new way of seeing food - I imagine it's like a thin person sees food - is so freeing.  I had Chinese take-out today and usually I wouldn't eat all the rice, but this time I ate about two small forkfulls of it and only half the mongolian beef which they don't give much of anyways.  Then I was just done.  So incredible.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Will on May 24, 2006, 10:55:03 PM
Friarjohn -
Quote
What are the caveats for going over 400 calories per day, according to Seth? I don't recall anything specific. Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler?

My understanding is that the upper bound of 400 calories comes from the belief that you shouldn't take in more than 20% of your daily calories from flavorless calorie sources.  If you have a reduced appetite (as you should when the diet is working) most people won't be eating much more than 2000 calories a day.  Maybe much less.  20% of 2000 calories is 400 calories so that is the recommendation.  If you are for whatever reason (very large/heavy, body builder, triathelete, etc..) eating over 2000 calories then it is probably ok to use more than 400 from a flavorless source. 

My understanding is that this rule is primarily to ensure that you actually eat some real food with vital nutrients(and protein) in it rather than just drinking 1000 calories of oil a day. 

Having said that, I have occasionally gone over this amount myself, although I have never gone over 500.  I am 6' 2" and weigh just under 300 lbs (having lost ~4-5 pounds on the diet in the last 3-4 weeks) and eating 2500 calories a day would not be strange for a person my size even on a reduced appetite.  Theoretically, my Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) is around 2600 calories.  That suggests that even without any exercise I would need to eat 2600 calories a day to maintain my weight.  I am eating less than that most days, forcing my body to use stored energy.

http://health.discovery.com/tools/calculators/basal/basal.html
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: mary on May 26, 2006, 10:30:45 PM
When you get really really hungry, you might want to try drinking a glass of water. Warm water seems to satisfy me usually. I dont drink ice water, (bad for digestion) I drink it room temperature, but sometimes a glass of warm water just seems to quench my appetite too... I read somewhere, that sometimes what we mistake for hunger is really thirst..... So in that time frame when you are feeling the most hungry try drinking water....
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Denise on May 27, 2006, 10:37:48 AM
Mary, that's another thing about this thing that is strange.  I find that some water hightens the full feeling.  I never found that with any other diet.  Water wouldn't fill me up, no matter if I chugged gallons.  A stomach full of water wouldn't signal my hunger off.  But on this thing, water does help.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Cheryl B on May 28, 2006, 09:19:32 AM
I started this on Thursday (It's now Sunday). I did 3 Tblsp. and noticed the effect of not being hungry almost right away. Another 3 the next morning and it was like a miracle. I'm usually VERY hungry in the morning but my appetite was just gone. Same thing Saturday and today. I also took a little more later in the day and that seems to be working well. I'm using canola. The first time was the hardest. Now I just do it in 3 shots and it's over. Good luck all!
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: random on May 28, 2006, 04:36:37 PM
The body probably has multiple ways to perceive "fullness". SLD changes the perception of food calories but doesn't change the perception of food volume (the space it takes up in the digestive tract). So, water may trigger the "full stomach" feeling to go with the "full calories" feeling from SLD.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: Denise on May 29, 2006, 12:20:43 AM
Perhaps, Random.  But whatever the mechanism, I think water helps.  And water never helped me on any other diet, ever.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: ssriley on May 29, 2006, 03:44:42 AM
I agree Denise. On other diets, if I tried to increase my water intake to help "take the edge off", after about a half hour, I would be much hungrier than if I didn't drink anything at all. I wondered if I wasn't just flushing out the stomach and making it emptier?

But with SLD, the water seems to have a more substantial feeling to it after drinking it, (if that makes any sense) and it lasts for some time with me. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Morbidly Obese... Effectiveness?
Post by: taligator on June 18, 2006, 11:31:28 PM
hey friarjohn .. how's it going?

(hi all, introduce myself in another post, new to the group and SLD but this thread caught my attention as I'm a wee bit larger than most here)

Tali